Oh, Pope Hats. Will we ever stop loving you?
So sorry, chums! Time is really nipping at my heels today so I don’t have time to festoon the show notes with images and links and youtubes and subliminal acrostics (you have been keeping up with the subliminal acrostics, right)? I’ve got to—as Graeme always says—”hit and quit it,” so you can get these show notes in a timely manner and I can collapse on the divan like the bearded grungefop that I am. (And yes, look for The Bearded Grungefop to be getting his own Oni series in 2019.)
Please do not let me keep you from enjoying this episode though, oh mighty Whatnauts! It is a pretty good one, with the questions coming from our patrons from Patreon, and the answers coming from…well, us, of course. We are probably the weak link in that two-link chain but what are you gonna do? (If you have a beard and you answered “collapsed on the divan?” you are—to again quote Graeme—”biting my style,” and I’ll have none of it, damn you!)
As always, I’ll throw the text of the link in the first comment so you can copy, paste, spindle, mutilate or fold, as per your choices. [Note: do not ingest link. If link is swallowed, do not induce vomiting. Prepare and drink approximately eight ounces of a solution made from the following ingredients: two tablespoons sodium bicarbonate, two egg whites, one Bill Mantlo comic, three pogs, and one blatant untruth released from the publicity department of a major comic book company.]
And, lo, there shall come a:
00:00-5:17: Greetings! And almost immediately we are off and running because this episode is overdue. Yes, it’s the Q&A episode where the Qs come from our supporters on Patreon, and the As come from us! But first, in explaining that we find ourselves explaining where to find us on Patreon, and so at the beginning of the podcast for a change:
Under The Tote Bag! Places to look for us at—Stitcher! iTunes! Twitter! Tumblr! and, of course, on Patreon where, as of this count, an eye-popping 100 patrons make this whole thing possible! And then Graeme tells us how we have the order we have, and then we get right to it. Surprisingly, it seems like there are just as many questions about the state of the industry as there are questions of taste or critical acumen and, unsurprisingly, there are questions about waffles.
(I’m not sure if I should just list the questions or also things we mention in our answers or what…so let’s just see how that comes together, shall we?)
5:17-17:22: Eric Rupe asks: “With the years of dire predictions for the direct market and some of the major publishers therein, on the podcast and otherwhere and by many people not on the podcast, why have none of them ever really come true? A truly captive audience? Lack of better options for various players in the market, however you chose to define that? Something else?”
(Discussed: captive audiences and the direct market, returnability and non-returnability, the New 52, the difference between how Marvel and DC incentivize ordering, (the last of which is very thoroughly covered by the Mighty Brian Hibbs over at CBR this month), the number of Secret Wars titles being launched by Marvel; an old conspiracy theory from the ‘80s; and more.)
17:22-23:25: Eric Rupe asks: If Diamond put the Previews catalog together in a more egalitarian manner, such as getting rid of premier publisher section and listing all publishers alphabetically or doing a rotating spotlight, do you think that it would lead to an increase in sales for non-Premier publishers?
23:25-30:58: Eric Rupe asks: “Which is the more important decade for superhero comics, the 60s or 90s? What do you think is the most important decade for comics in general?”
30:58-41:21: Eric Rupe asks: “Are the intentions of the editors and writers on recent outreach titles like Captain America, Ms. Marvel, Thor and Captain Marvel comprised by the fact that Marvel, as a company, is horrible when it comes to things like ethics, morals and general human decency? Does the larger cultural situation with a general lack of diversity in things like blockbuster movies and the fact that most companies are just as bad if not worse than Marvel on an ethical level matter? Or is simply a matter of giving one set of values priority over another.”
41:21-52:14: Eric Rupe asks: “Is Image’s current success based around Eric Stephenson and, if so, do you think that continued success is possible if Stephenson left the company? Also, do you think Image will be able to continue with it’s current publishing strategies or will the founders will want to reassert their presence in some way and mess things up in some fashion or another?’
52:14-53:32: Eric Rupe asks: “If Jeff’s beard could be described as a kind of waffle, what kind of waffle would it be? If Jeff’s beard were sentient would it a) prefer Marvel or DC, b) be editorially mandated or creator driven, c)follow characters or follow creators and d) be a Grant Morrison fanboy or an Alan Moore fanboy? If Jeff’s beard fought Alan Moore’s beard, which would win? Does Jeff’s beard have plans for world conquest?”
53:32-55:17: Scott Ashworth asks: “Aside from the Wait, What Holy Trinity of Kirby, Engelhart, and Gerber, who are your choices for most consistently interesting writers at Marvel in the period between Lee and Shooter’s editorships?”
55:17-56:13: Dave Clarke asks: “At what Patreon tier do we get a monthly ‘Jeff tries to explain manga to Graeme’ podcast?”
56:13-56:34: Dave Clarke asks: “Have you guys seen the tv series Utopia? (the british thriller one that lasted 2 seasons, not the australian comedy one) If so talk about it. If not consider giving it a go, I think you guys would dig it and the first season revolves around hunting down a comic.”
[Note from Jeff: After recording this podcast, I just found out that Gillian Flynn (Gone Girl) has gotten the assignment to write the scripts for the American remake of the show and now I am VERY EXCITED.]
56:34-1:03:23: Dave Clarke asks: “The cultural implications of the new Batgirl series being a magnet for internet controversy.”
1:03:23-1:08:47: Dave Clarke asks: “Isn’t it weird that comics are still pencilled, inked and coloured? Inking was originally developed to work around technical limitations of mass productions which dont really exist any more. Even though a tonne of illustration is done for the film and video game industry very very little of it is of the ‘black linework + colour added behind it’ variety. Thoughts on why its still going strong in comics? Predictions for the future?”
1:08:47-1:10:46: Adam P. Knave asks: “What breakfast foods are each of the classic avengers?”
1:10:46 -1:15:57: Paul Spence asks: “Could the Whatnauts give us an assessment of Brandon Graham’s Prophet. I believe that Jeff likes it, but Graeme does not. I really like Prophet and I believe that it is the most original and challenging of all the sci-fi titles that Image has launched over the last four years. A number of the Image sci-fi offerings seem the same to me. Too many of them are formulaic post-apocalyptic dystopias.”
1:15:57-1:21:23: Paul Spence asks: “Can you voice an opinion about Graham’s earlier magnum opus King City. I have been rereading it recently and I keep finding new layers in the work to enjoy. Graham’s art is stunning in its detail and it looks gorgeous in black & white. I love Graham’s off-center sensibilities and the way he embraces surrealism. He is not a creator that everyone can enjoy, but I appear to be on whatever quirky wavelength he is on and his work really speaks to me.”
1:21:23-1:30:35: Jeff Lang asks: “What did you guys think of the Captain Marvel/Warlock stuff when you first read it and why do you think the PTB behind the Marvel Cinematic Universe have embraced that particular sliver of the mid-1970s? Convenience? Fannish devotion? A mix of the two? Something else?”
1:30:35-1:43:20: Kevin McCandless asks: “A simple question but out of all the non-Big Two series you’ve reviewed in the last year, which one would you recommend to someone getting back into alternative comics after a long hiatus? By which I mean, upper middle-brow, appealing to NPR-listeners (which describes me to a T) stuff like Palookaville or Bone?”
1:43:20-1:47:11: Chris Jarzombek asks: “Given the Lee-Kirby tension in the FF stories (i.e., Kirby wants to go one way with the story, Lee wants to go another), would there be any value in re-scripting some (or all) of the pages so that they better match the ideal (which I would assume for you guys would be Kirby’s intention)? I’m thinking particularly of pages where the art suggests Sue wants to stay with Namor, but the script is pulling her toward Reed; or ones where the heroes appear weaker than Lee is willing to concede. Or put another way: Would theses stories be better if they were “fixed,” or is the tension part of the fun for you?”
1:47:11-2:08:54: J.D. Smith (that you, Smitty?) asks: “With Private Eye bowing at ten issues what do we take away from the model? What are you guys enjoying on the broader culture spectrum? Books? Music? Film? TV?”
[Please note. This response features the phrase: “Brian K. Vaughn is the Amanda Palmer of comics.”]
2:08:54-2:11:39: Chris Beckett asks: “With the upcoming Daredevil series on Netflix, what DD comics would you recommend, outside of Frank Miller’s work? (Personally, I love the Nocenti/JRJr run, which was my proper introduction to the character.)”
2:11:39-2:18:09: Roger Winston asks: “What are your feelings about DC’s “announcement” that they are no longer going to be slaves to continuity? (Assuming you believe it.) Apologies if you’ve already covered this in the podcast and I forgot. I’m interested in how important continuity is to you and if that has changed over the years. I know that in my younger days I was quite insistent that everything matches up, but these days I don’t care as much. How important is it to a company’s reputation (for lack of a better term) that they are consistent with what they’ve established or are trying to establish?”
2:18:09-2:18:32: Daniel Mackay asks: “What do you think of the original Batman TV series and should the Batman vs Superman film be a spiritual sequel to the series? I think we all want their fight to be Batman whipping out his Bat Superman Repellent Spray.”
2:18:32-2:26:07: Dan Billings asks: “Not sure if anyone has asked this before but a friend gave me a bunch of his 1970s comics which included Welcome Back Kotter comics and it made me think about recent non-animated sitcoms and if they would make decent comics. Any jump out at you? Who would write and draw them?”
2:26:07-2:27:35: Martin Gray asks: “Here’s a question, then. If DC and Marvel were waffle toppings, what would they be?”
2:27:35-2:29:42: And, finally, Graeme runs though a thank you of our patrons, because we said we would and also because you are awesome and deserve it:
Andrew Bayer
J.D. Smith
Kristoffer Peterson
Chris Tanforan
Terrence Stasse
Neil Kapit
Lawrence Cruz
Carlos Aguilar
Paul Holmes
David Brown
Roy Rogers
timothy rifenburg
Leef Smith
Scott Ashworth
Stephen Williamson
Jeffrey Lang
John Kipling
Martin Gray
Robert Grzech
Dan Billings
Dan Turner
Ford Thomas
Derek Moreland
Max Brown
Leighton Connor
Stephen Andrews
Eric Phipps
Al Ewing
Chris Jarzombek
Heath Edwards
Steve Huang
Daniel Mackay
Jason Hopkins
Sean McTiernan
Eric Rupe
Roger Winston
Doug Aiton
Jesse Morgan
Steven Prince
Justin Harman
Aldin Baroza
Carla Hoffman
Matt Terl
Dominic Soria
Jon Copeland
Patrick Gaffney
Rick Vance
Mark Bender
Matt Digges
Matthew Johnson
Cass Andrew Sherman
Matt Miller
Chris Beckett
Ryan Watkins
Charles Forsman
Adam P Knave
Christian Sager
Corey Dvorkin
Anthony Casaldi
Ryan Fitzgerald
Luke Stacks
Brian Ruckley
Chris Bentley
Mairead Ryan (Ryan Mairead?)
Jose Maneira
Thomas Martin
Rich Barrett
Andrew Foley
Brendan O’Hare
Garrett Berner
Adam Polakoff
Dylan Todd
Jacob Shemkovitz
Jamaal Thomas
2:29:42-end: Closing comments! At the time this was recorded we were wondering what we would do when we got to our 100th patron. We’ve since hit that milestone, and still don’t know what to do.
Reboot! And it’s pretty much also our “closing comments!” section, with us talking about how next week is *not* a skip week and how you’ll be getting Ep. 173 next week and *then* a skip week. And again: Under The Tote Bag! Places to look for us at—Stitcher! iTunes! Twitter! Tumblr! and, of course, on Patreon where, as of this count, we are grateful to our 100 patrons, and especially to those who asked questions for this very episode.
Okay, that divan is close. I will try to flesh out the tags later. Look to the skies! Look to our comments! Look to your longboxes!
http://theworkingdraft.com/media/podcasts/WaitWhat173.mp3
To quote Pepé Le Pew: “Viola!”
http://theworkingdraft.com/media/podcasts/WaitWhat173.mp3
Or, “voila?”
Regarding inking, speaking as a long-time member of the Inkwell Awards Nomination Committee, recent years have seen a tremendous shift away from both inkers and colorists as more and more artists provide full art & colors for their own work. Inkers are primarily employed on Marvel & DC products. Image has virtually eliminated them (probably due to economics, just as some Image writers letter their own books). They also become rarer each year at Dark Horse & IDW.
This was chock full of great info, Michael, thank you!
(But no, it’s “viola!” That’s the genius of Mel Blanc for you.)
Comic Geek Speak did a great interview with veteran inker Drew Geraci (episode #657) where he was very pessimistic about the future of comic book inkers. You can listen to the podcast here:
http://www.comicgeekspeak.com/episodes/comic_geek_speak-859.php
In 2009, Geraci wrote an op-ed piece for CBR where he expressed his concerns regarding the future of inking. You can find the op-ed piece here:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=21752
In both the podcast and the CBR op-ed piece he gives a pretty sobering assessment of the future of comic book inking. If you are interested it is worth your time to read the article and listen to the podcast.
Thanks for reading my questions on the air :)
Re: Prophet. Prophet is a completely different series every couple of issue which is part of why I think it works so well. Most other sci-fi series Ive read from Image read like chapters from an eventual trade paperback and kinda blur together, where each issue of Prophet feels like a solid premise for a series on its own. Hell it even ran backups from different people to up the sense that each issue was a bag of new ideas.
Obviously there a tradeoff with how complex the plots can get like that and how deep the characterization can go, but Im looking forward to seeing if the same lightning will strike with 8House with its multiple collaborators and multiple points of view.
Re: Sitcoms as Comics
I wouldnt mind a Peep Show comic, or even just a few one-shots about Superhans.
Prophet has been terrific from day 1 and Graham has really been playing the long game – show up for the WTF factor and stay for the massive world-building, rotating but literally stellar art, and the character dynamics. I really hope Earth War actually happens despite shockingly low sales. Maybe a graphic novel?
I’m with Graeme 100% about Black Mirror. LOATHED that second episode, the American Idol riff. So fucking stupid obvious and typical lazy sci-fi dystopia where everyone is inexplicably cruel. No trace of humanity anywhere.
I remember hearing that the Nazi overseers of concentration camps were kept by the Nationalist party on a steady diet of hard liquor. The idea being, they had to be totally numb to do their horrible jobs. Even in the worst society in history, cruelty and degradation were not tasks to be performed with glee. In Black Mirror, not only is everyone horrible to everyone else, in fact, everyone loves being horrible to everyone else. It’s the filmic equivalent a strawman argument: You like this X-Factor/American Idol culture? Well, you’re responsible for the degradation of society to a collection of 1-D cartoon monsters.
If I can be cynical for a moment (and why not? we’re talking about Black Mirror, after all), I think it’s even worse than I’ve made it out. See, I don’t believe Brooker or whoever wrote the episode actually feels very strongly one way or the other about mid 2000s Western culture. When I envision the writing process, I see a man saying to himself “How can I make these dummies understand my deep commentary on the culture? Okay, I’ll have everyone behave like Simon Cowell, dialed up to 11.” It’s simplistic, but not in the Steve Ditko mold, where there’s an urgency to the message. With Black Mirror, it’s more about having the appearance of social commentary without asking your audience to devote any thought or to feel conflicted about anything.
Will say it looked pretty cool though.
“See, I don’t believe Brooker or whoever wrote the episode actually feels very strongly one way or the other about mid 2000s Western culture.”
Are you not familiar with the rest of Brooker’s career?
No. I saw the first three of Black Mirror, but didn’t know the name until I heard it on this podcast. I’m guessing from your comment that he writes about that stuff all the time? In that case, I can kind of see it being the polar opposite of what I said. So his one-dimensional portrayals wouldn’t be pandering as I initially thought, but more like him trying to force the audience to reach the same conclusions he has.
No, actually, the second episode of Black Mirror was basically autobiographical, in that Brooker made his mark on television career as an “outsider”– among other things (the pre-Walking Dead zombie show Dead Set, a pre-hipster comedy about hipsters called Nathan Barley with Chris Morris), he had a show called Screenwipe (notable for this bit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHun58mz3vI, among many others), much of which involved him yelling at how bad television was. (It sort of evolved from there into a sort of news-ish satire like the Daily Show– a recent bit worth watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcy8uLjRHPM)…. Brooker’s basically a video game critic who became Jon Stewart, if Jon Stewart wrote the Twilight Zone and the Naked Gun in his spare time (though the Naked Gun stuff’s pretty, pretty skippable). He also writes columns for the Guardian so there’s a little, uh, Dave Barry there too…?
Anyways, people liked that show so much that he became given bigger opportunities in television. I think a lot of Black Mirror is about that anxiety of being part of a system that he recognizes as basically noxious and harmful (at least there are parts of British television that I think are much more dehumanizing than what we have– Sex Box, say; or all their children presenters turned out to like kids in a not-okay way and stuff). (One of Brooker’s shows was called How TV Ruined Your Life and is just him and his team talking about that).
I think the bicycle episode is all about that anxiety of being… you know, can you criticize a thing like television without the things that make a profit off television owning you too?
That anxiety recurs in a very weak second season episode — probably the worst of the bunch (I think Brooker’s agreed in interviews), involving a comedian that gets involved in an election.
Thanks for the lesson, Abhay (seriously). And as always, top notch Youtube links. I actually enjoyed those videos more than most of that first season of Black Mirror. I’m thinking it might be worth investigating some of his nonfiction stuff.
I’m also one of the rare people who just can’t get on the Black Mirror bandwagon. I started watching it with my wife because so many people recommended it. Enjoyed the pig-f***ing episode on the level of a fast-moving, audacious black comedy, but found the remaining episodes I watched almost entirely tedious. The biking and memory implant episodes were slow and predictable, with a complete absence of engaging characters. By the time I got halfway through the dead husband episode, I realized I had basically switched over to reading my book and only half paying attention to what was on the screen. Turned it off and haven’t revisited the series since.
@Graeme: Loved the Blur show, thanks again for tipping me off. I would’ve missed it. I also struggled with loving/hating the new stuff for a while but after seeing it all live I’m just glad we have new Blur and it isn’t terrible. I think the new material is a good fit on them. Go Out is ma jam. I was sooooooooo way too stoked they closed with Trouble in the Message Center too. I had to call my sister and talk about it.
@Jeff: Funny you’re back into Kanye’s MBDTF. I re-listened to Monster after a year or so and decided the world will look back and laugh at what a terrible song it is, even though it seemed cool at the time. HOWEVER, the rest of that album remains f-ing fucking incredible.
@Kevin McCandless: Graeme mentioned if you like stuff like Bone to look online. Rice Boy by Evan Dahm is online and is in a lot of ways Bone with an new haircut, but it also has a lot of its own charisma. There’s also some new stuff coming out on the Rice Boy/Evan Dahm site.
Jeff: What did you end up thinking of Savages? It was a book that…I don’t think I liked it, but, even a year or two after reading it, I keep thinking about it, and maybe I’m dismissing it as more shallow than it actually is. I even still want to read the prequel book (which sounds utterly ludicrous, but really, a ludicrous prequel would fit Savages to a T).
I’d think Iron Man should be an Espresso.
Oh- I totally missed the Hulk as coffee- I got nothin’.
Depends on the Iron Man. If it’s the ’60s Iron Man, it’s good ol’ heart healthy oatmeal topped with transistors, because they do everything in those comics.
Egg or Exotic Melon-even in breakfast women characters can’t break the mother/whore typecasting.
All that Billy Preston talk, and no mention of his god like powers to resurrect women who have been killed by Aerosmith?
Iron Man is a mimosa, or maybe a Bloody Mary.
Re Daredevil runs: I loved the first few issues of Brubaker’s run, then it settled into a rut of bleakness. It wasn’t all bad, per say, just relentless. My favorite post-Miller runs are Nocenti/ JR Jr/ Williamson (and I can not emphasize enough how well Williamson inked Jr Jr, better than anyone else ever), Waid & Co., Kesel & Nord, and Bendis/ Maleev/etc. I also liked the Chichester/ Weeks “Last Rites” story & issue 380, the Kelly & Colan -1 issue, and the Mack/Quesada/etc. “Parts of a Hole.”
Re indie comic ongoings: it’s now a series of miniseries and nothing like Palookaville or Bone, but Stray Bullets is back to being published regularly and also fantastic.
Re sitcom comics: most sitcoms are visually uninteresting and would make terrible comics. Despite that, I could see Evan Dorkin making a good Brooklyn 99 comic. He’s good with comedy, including background gags. I think it would be a colossal waste of his talents, but Dorkin could pull it off.
Co-sign the fact that Williamson’s inks over JR Jr on the Nocenti DAREDEVIL stuff are all kinds of beautiful. Coincidentally, I picked up three issues of that run in a dollar box at my LCS about an hour ago and I was gobsmacked anew at what a stunning team they were. Williamson’s line is so delicate, sure, ornate and lovely. However, JR’s pencils definitely had something to do with it — I flipped thru a few Lee Weeks penciled issues of DD (also inked by AW) and they looked just so-so (although Weeks’ current stuff is quite gorgeous). I really want to re-read all of that Nocenti/JR/AW run… As a kid, I remember it consistently freaked me the fuck out.
Oh yeah, JR Jr deserves a lot of the credit for how good the Nocenti issues and the Man Without Fear mini look and read. Honestly, I am not a fan of most of his output. He has great storytelling skills and his style is distinctive, but I never warmed to how his art actually looks. It wasn’t until I read the DD back issues that I found something by him that I liked (not counting old Spider-Man and Iron Man comics. He was a good Marvel house artist then, but hadn’t come into his own).
I see people write about how great the JR Jr DD issues are but not mention Williamson’s contribution. I feel it does a disservice to his work. I view the JR Jr/ Williamson combo as one of the great super-hero comics art teams, akin to Kirby/ Sinnott, Colan/ Palmer, or Byrne/ Austin.
Inkers get the short end of the comic book artist conversation, especially in the current age of star colorists (who deserve all the accolades they get). It doesn’t help that line art is less visible when you have dazzling colors. For all I know, some current inkers are distinct stylists like Janson, Palmer, Layton, etc. but their work can’t be seen as well. As Jeff & Graeme pointed out, lots of artists ink their own work anyway and the position of inker is becoming obsolete outside of deadline-conscious Big 2 comics.
Once you’ve seen JRJR illustrate a Nocenti script, seeing him draw Johns, Millar, or Bendis not only looks terrible, but would justify the editor being tried in the hague.
Once you’ve seen JRJR illustrate a Nocenti script, seeing him draw Johns, Millar, or Bendis not only looks terrible, but would justify the editor being tried in the hague.
If we’re going by Tony’s canonical drinking preferences (aside from “anything with alcohol, up to and including Listerine” as he was in the early 80’s), he’s more of a hard liquor, something simple and thick brown with a high alcohol content, like a Scotch or a bourbon.
Damn it, how did I miss the “Iron Man as Bloody Mary” connection. So obvious!
Funny you should talk about comedy being centred on performers. I recently watched a video about visual comedy in film. I’ve been sort of hungry for pop criticism of film editing, so this channel hits the spot for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FOzD4Sfgag
Anyways, he basically talks about how edgar wright knows how to use filmic language comedically. He goes too far in saying that everything else is bad, but whatever. I think that’s an example that could be stretched to comics. I wish I could think of other writer/director/editors that are funny visually, but I’m having trouble doing it. Most comedy is all about the actors.
Hi. Wow. Actually, those are exactly the kinds of books that I’m looking for. Lumberjanes, This One Summer, Nimona, Pope Hats (I actually just ordered two issues). Out of budget issues, I’ve been out of alternative comics for a while but those sound awesome. But again, thanks for the answers.
Oh, good! Glad we could help out, Kevin. Let us know what you think!
I thought your comment about the X-Men cartoons being a lot of people’s first exposure to superhero stuff, and that has led to people thinking about Marvel as a source for female heroes, was interesting because DC _should_ be involved with that as well due to the Teen Titans cartoon.
Yet, DC has not just seemingly ignored the many fans of that show, but (and I kind of hate to say this) almost spat in their faces with the way that characters like Starfire have been dealt with in the comics in recent years. If you want female readers you don’t take the awesome space princess and turn her into a sex doll.