What’s that, you say? You were looking forward to Baxter Building, our in-depth look at the first 416-issue of Marvel’s Fantastic Four? We’ll see if you’re still saying that after this uber-sized first episode, in which we talk about the series’ first 12 issues. I remember saying to Jeff “I really want to go deep on the first 12, because the series changes so much during that time.” Little did I know that we’d go quite so deep…! Shownotes below, and for those who want their choice to listen elsewhere, you can find this episode on Stitcher and iTunes. Please be kind. It’s our first time.
Jeff (left) and I (right) plan the first episode of the series.
0:00:00-0:02:27: The origin of the theme music and the title for the podcast. Literally, we were making this up as we were going along, in case it’s not obvious. “People, you’re getting to hear the origins right now,” as I say in the episode itself.
0:02:27-0:05:27: For any newcomers, Jeff and I run down just what we’re reading, and how to read along. (This would probably be a good place to put a link to Marvel Unlimited, considering we mention it for those who’re looking for ways to read along with us.)
Sue Storm fails to realize that actually being visible when in cabs might make her life a lot easier.
0:05:27-0:24:40: The first issue, and the many ways in which it seems unlike the team as we know them today — including the literalness of the the original Fantastic Four flare, Sue Storm’s bad choices when it comes to transportation, the familiarity to both monster comics and Kirby’s own Challengers of the Unknown, the importance of the Human Torch in the early issues, and much, much more. (Also discussed: Stan Lee’s inability to understand science, the early pacing issues and possible reasons for that, and the disconnect between image and text in that first issue. Not to mention, what’s missing from the first issue: Stan Lee being Stan Lee.)
0:24:40-0:28:00: “The first issue is scary!” The ways in which the first Fantastic Four hints at later superhero comics, by making superheroes something just a little less terrifying by the monsters they fight. Is there a Lovecraft connection with the book’s title?
0:28:01-0:33:55: The wonderful fake-out of the opening of Fantastic Four #2, and why it’s a trick that could only work once — and at this particular point in the series. Also, why do the Fantastic Four have so many hiding places, and in what ways is this issue like Lee and Kirby’s Hulk?
Johnny, get your gun.
0:33:55-0:39:10: The first element of Lee and Kirby being meta-textual. It won’t be the last. Also, even more problems with the pacing and potential plot problems, because apparently no-one was really paying attention to what was happening in with the story of these first issues until it was too late.
“Costumes… tights… that’s kid stuff!”
0:39:10-0:48:00: Fantastic Four suddenly embraces the superhero-ness of it all, starting with the third issue. Jeff also brings out the importance of the urban nature of the stories, and the way in which the Fantastic Four have been part of the city, while I suggest that things are starting to change even by this issue. Also: the first appearance of the Baxter Building! The first appearance of the Fantasti-Car and the Fantastic Four costumes, and how off-handed it all seems! Are Lee and Kirby having their cake and eating it by making a big deal of the “new” Fantastic Four even as they have the characters make fun of them? Plus! Who is Jeff’s breakout character of the series to date? The answer will surprise you (because, seriously, who’s ever given this character a second thought before now?)
0:48:00-0:53:10: Referencing Fantastic Four (1961-89) was The Great American Novel, we discuss whether or not the swiftly changing social standing of the FF was a reflection of Lee and Kirby’s success with the book, or simply something that all superhero comics have to deal with. How does Stan Lee deal with the concept of the underdog? (Spoiler: not that well.)
0:53:10-0:57:14: The first letters page brings a handful of great surprises, including the origins of Stan Lee’s self-mythology. Guest-starring a member of the Marvel Bullpen! We then return to the story in progress, with Jeff selecting a scene that he hopes will definitely show up in this summer’s Fantastic Four movie, while also describing the climax of the issue’s plot thusly: “Oh, come on.”
0:57:14-1:00:00: The strange magic of Fantastic Four #4 is revealed for both Jeff and myself, oddly enough. Is this the greatest introduction to the team? In the words of Chris Claremont, “Maybe so! Maybe no!” (If this issue was in Bring On The Bad Guys, let us know? The Internet failed me when I looked into it.)
Kirby’s Bowery is genuinely amazing.
1:00:00-1:15:25: We dig into the sheer Kirby-ness of FF #4, from the weird comedy to both the impressive depictions of the Bowery and a couple of instances where he predicts pop art years before it goes mainstream. Seriously, this is such a great, great issue — albeit an uneven one in terms of tone and a “disquieting” one, to use Jeff’s term. Is that Kirby’s fault? Trigger Warning: this sequence features the words “Then there’s the fucking whale with hands.”
The Tick Tick Tick panels that Jeff and I both love so much.
1:15:25-1:31:22: We reach the first appearance of Doctor Doom, whose very first panel really tells you everything you need to know about him, and how perfectly Kirby captures his origin sequence — just before the story swerves in a direction that no-one could see coming, because what the hell, everyone. Before any of that happens, though, Roy Thomas pops up in the letters page and we ask the important questions: Why do travelers in the past have pirate disguise kits? Is the Thing cursed? And is this the end of the beginning of Ben Grimm?
The Yancy Street Gang’s main purpose in their first appearance? Humanizing the Thing.
1:31:22-1:38:30: Finally, we reach the sixth issue — by now, you’re realizing quite why this episode is as long as it is — just as the Fantastic Four become outright celebrities, and the Yancy Street Gang make their debut. “This is a quantum leap forward!” Jeff says, and impressively neither of us make a Scott Bakula reference. I’m sorry. Despite that, we get through this one relatively quickly because it’s not a favorite, and manages to diminish everyone involved (although Jeff does make a good case for this issue being a stealth reboot of the Sub-Mariner, just two issues after his debut in the Marvel Age of Comics).
1:38:30-1:44:41: Jeff’s not a massive fan of Fantastic Four #7, but I love it. Who knows quite what happened to Lee and Kirby for “Prisoners of Kurrgo, Master of Planet X,” but Jeff’s entirely right when he says that it could’ve been a Simpsons episode. If you’ve been looking for alien Lazy Susans and Reed Richards’ bong, then this issue is exactly what you want, and there’s also the added benefit of Reed revealing that he is, in fact, a massive dick.
Jeff’s favorite part of the issue: Sue Storm kicking someone in the butt while invisible.
1:44:41-1:53:00: I call Fantastic Four #8 “another [issue] full of important shit,” including the first appearance of the Puppet Master — who, for once, is an actual threat and gets the best exit of his fictional life — as well as Alicia, Reed’s quest to cure the Thing and much more. Jeff suggests that perhaps Lee and Kirby have a future in this comic book business, because this is clearly the stage of recording where we’re into hyperbole. (To his credit, he also has some great points to make about why this issue is more fairy-tale-like than the earlier issues.)
1:53:00-2:05:47: There’s a lot going for Fantastic Four #9 — the greatest introduction of the Sub-Mariner in any comic ever, for one — but we talk about the expressiveness of Kirby’s Thing, even at this early stage, the greatness of Kirby’s Hollywood caricatures, and Namor’s willingness to do whatever it takes to fuck Sue Storm. That said, there’re a couple of majorly objectionable things in this issue, with some staggering racism and sexism at play here in a way that’s not been visible in the series before (and it’s hardly been an unsexist series to this point). I also explain to Jeff why Paul Gambaccini isn’t just a pre-Internet troll, but here’s a little bit more context as to why I was familiar with him; his letter to Stan Lee, however, is a thing of greatness. Jeff, meanwhile, likens this issue with the real-world cinematic fortunes of the Fantastic Four. Is Roger Corman the Sub-Mariner?
The Best Namor.
2:05:47-2:19:18: Who is flagging more by this point, Jeff and me or Lee and Kirby? Here’s a clue: Fantastic Four #10 is an issue that features Lee and Kirby actually appearing in the comic itself to bemoan the fact that they can’t come up with another villain as memorable as Doctor Doom. That said, I’m fully expecting someone to pop up in the comments and tell us that we’re very, very wrong when it comes to the science of flames and being able to burn when cold, because that’s what happens when you talk so boldly about such subjects on the Internet. Nonetheless, Doctor Doom returns, with some wonderfully un-Doom-like dialogue and the greatest theory about dinosaurs that has ever existed. Nonetheless, Jeff has theories about the uber-consistency of Doom in a way that you suspect that Doom himself would approve of. Less likely to be approved of: the Sue Storm pin-up in the issue, and specifically, the caption that accompanies it. We also discuss both the rarely-discussed superpowers, and never-discussed parentage, of Alicia Masters, and I make a joke that might be construed as able-ist re: Battlin’ Jack Murdock’s children that I kind of regret. (Sorry, people who might be offended! I didn’t mean to offend you!)
Inarguably the highlight of Fantastic Four #10
2:19:18-2:27:45: Fantastic Four #11 features the Fantastic Four reading their mail and meeting the Impossible Man for the first time. Guess which of those two things we spend more time talking about? Jeff does have some interesting thoughts about possible roots for Impy’s origins, however. There’s also a new origin of the Fantastic Four and an important revelation about Reed Richards’ past, and Stan Lee demonstrates why he really shouldn’t try and tackle sexism as an important topic. (Entirely unrelated to the Fantastic Four, Jeff also discovers the previously-unknown link between Dave Sim and Dim Sum.)
Reed and Ben aren’t going to take sexism lightly — unless it’s THEIR sexism!
2:27:45-2:36:04: Both Jeff and I are fairly non-plussed by Fantastic Four #12, which puts the team on the trail of the Hulk. There are some Avengers re-read flashbacks, and we talk about the need for the series to actually be centered around the Fantastic Four themselves, and the way in which the Hulk defeated the two men who created him.
2:36:04-end: In which we finally reach the end, talk (briefly) about which of the issues worked and didn’t work in the first 12, and tell you where you can find us on the Internet: Twitter, Tumblr and Patreon, where 94 people are helping us record things like this.
This, then, is the beginning of the World’s Greatest Magazine Podcast. We hope you enjoy it, and will stick with us as we power through the rest of the first volume of the series. (We’ll try to make episodes shorter in future, too.)
For those looking to download the episode for their own purposes, here’s the link: http://theworkingdraft.com/media/podcasts/BaxterBuilding1.mp3
Just started listening but….Best. Opening/Intro. Ever.
Fantastic Four-cast?
I dunno, maybe some copyright/trademark issues involved.
Also only 36 minutes in, but I wanted to mention a couple of things really quick:
-I said as much on Twitter, but it bears repeating: that intro is AMAZING. What Patreon level do I have to hit to get that as a ringtone, because WANT.
-I remember reading…somewhere (somewhere probably completely unsourced and apocryphal, at that) as a kid that Kirby had a waaaaaaay different conception of the book than Lee when he initially drew it – and yeah, he really saw it more as a horror book than a superhero one. Specifically, Johnny’s powers were supposed to hurt when he used them, that he was literally on fire, even if his body showed none of the afteraffects. I still think that the panels where Johnny lights up for the first time in the flashback look a lot more chaotic and uncontrolled than Lee is saying in the dialogue, and that at one point it looks like Johnny is even waving his arms in pain.
-After you guys did the Avengers read-through, I’m trying to look at the page without dialogue and read it how it would have been presented to Lee. I think their work gets a lot more simpatico as the series progresses (it really clicks for me when the Puppet Master shows up), but you guys are spot on about issue one.
I’m sure I’ll have more to say as I get further into the show, but those thoughts were fresh on the top of my head, and I didn’t want to forget them. Oh! And I ADORE the shows that run over two hours, because I usually listen to them at work Tuesday morning, for what that’s worth.
“fantastic forecast” – trademark infringement problems solved. I’m a lawyer. Trust me.
I have made it 1 minute and 28 seconds into the podcast, and on the basis of the theme tune alone, this is the best podcast in the history of podcasts.
Here’s looking forward to the next two and a half hours.
Surely “Nuff Said” should be the name of the podcast? (And I know, stop calling me Shirley)
I thought the title should be “Wait! Four What?”
There already is a podcast called Fantastic Fourcast (or 4cast or Forecast). I listened once, and found it to be not what I’m looking for in a podcast.
I’m about 40 min into the podcast. The theme song is still making me laugh. Great job Graeme, inadvertant awesome job Jeff.
I reread issues 1-5 yesterday and Holy Moses! Thems some daffy comics! Amazing and entertaining, but out there. There was so much weird, but you know what struck me? Everyone called Ben “Thing.” Granted, he tells them to in issue 1, but I’m used to Ben Grimm being called by his real name. Reed is almost never called Mr. Fantastic from the get-go, but I wonder how long it will be until Ben’s codename becomes almost an insult.
Fab! Can’t wait ’till Sunday morning (my podcast listening time) for 2 hours of sure to be goodness. Luckily, I don’t have to re-read these, as they are mostly burned into my memory from the many reprints I read from Marvel UK during the ”70s. From The Mighty World of Marvel to The Complete Fantastic Four…
A terrific beginning!
I feel this needs an NSFW warning because when the theme song kicked in I had to cover my mouth to keep from laughing out loud; even though I’m braced for it now, I expect the same from the next episode.
Re: Kurrgo – he returned in a team-up with fellow giant-headed villain the Leader where they fought the Thing & Hulk in Marvel Feature#11.
Re: Promoting the Hulk – the Hulk’s book was cancelled the same month he appeared in the Fantastic Four. His appearance in FF wasn’t so much to drum up sales for his own book but, like his appearances in the Avengers, to drum up interest in giving him another shot at a book.
There already is a Fantastic Fourcast (or 4cast or Forecast). I listened to an episode, but it wasn’t for me.
Great job on the theme song, Graeme! Inadvertent awesome job, Jeff! I laughed my ass off.
I managed to reread issues 1-5 before listening. Those are some weird comics! The little oddity that stood out to me (among all the big oddities) was that everyone called Ben “Thing.” I know it’s his code name but I’m used to all the Ff being addressed by their real names. Granted, he told them to call him The Thing in issue 1, but I always thought the title became a borderline insult in recent years.
I haven’t had a chance to listen to the podcast yet, except for the opening theme which I’ve listened to about 5 times now. Truly…fantastic.
“We also discuss both the rarely-discussed superpowers, and never-discussed parentage, of Alicia Masters, and I make a joke that might be construed as able-ist re: Battlin’ Jack Murdock’s children that I kind of regret. (Sorry, people who might be offended! I didn’t mean to offend you!)”
Unfortunately they kind of set it up for such ridicule, by making Alicia into the saintly, mystical blind girl with perceptual abilities beyond normal sighted people (but who ultimately just exists to give motivation to everyone else). It’s not enough that she just be blind, she has to be super-blind and able to see into peoples’ hearts and converse with all the animals of the forest (probably). And it’s not enough that she just be a nice person, she has to be treated like a little glass unicorn of complete purity but limited agency.
Anyway, I loved this first Baxter Building podcast and look forward to following the whole series as we see the Fantastic Four’s descent into irrelevance.
Geez you guys bagged on my favorite issue (#6) pretty hard. I’m not sure how you ended up ranking a dud like Kurrgo above a comic with three seriously indelible images – the Baxter building cutaway, the Baxter building floating above Manhattan, and Namor’s Go Go GO! – to say nothing of Doctor Doom’s amazing nuclear terror monologue, but what-everrrr.
That being said, great first episode. The theme song could not be more perfect, as others have noted. The analysis spurred me on to revisit issue #4, which I’m very glad I did.
The bit about Stan Lee undercutting Kirby (or his artists generally) – this happens a lot in one very particular way, which is that Lee will not allow his pet characters to be blindsided. Lee has a specific idea about what makes a hero, and being caught by surprise is not part of it. In order to make Reed conform to this idea, Lee ends up constantly “correcting” Kirby’s artwork in the dialogue. Reed’s face and body will reflect surprise at an enemy ambush, yet the dialogue will read “I calculated that you would strike at precisely this moment!”
If you take these rewrites literally, rather than as Lee pushing through an agenda, you wind up with one of two unflattering readings of the character. Either Reed is so insecure about his intelligence that he feels the need to lie every time he’s caught unawares, OR he actually is the borderline omniscient figure the dialogue makes him out to be, and he simply allows his family to be attacked in order to satisfy an intellectual curiosity. Ironically, neither sounds very heroic.
(As an aside, what makes Lee’s “perfecting up” of Mr. Fantastic even more annoying is that he does it to a lesser extent with the Torch and Thing, but pretty much never with the Invisible Girl. So while Reed’s apparent blunders all figure into some brilliant plan, for Sue, who’s just a dumb female, her goofs are never played as anything but her own fault.)
(Second aside: I don’t think there’s much doubt, but further evidence that Reed’s all-knowingness is Lee’s contribution and not Kirby’s can be seen in the fact that Spider-Man possesses a similar level of word-balloon contra panel infallibility. For example, the art will depict Spidey being bludgeoned in the face by Doc Ock’s tentacle, and just when you think there’s some drama and peril, a thought balloon will swoop in to remind you “By allowing myself to be hit, I’ll be perfectly posed for my next attack!”)
Cass: Great analysis of the “I’m not surprised!” undercut, which is a *huge* area of disagreement with Lee and Kirby. Having recently re-read a good chunk of the Lee/Kirby Cap stories from Tales of Suspense, I noticed Lee does it constantly there as well. Considering how much credit Lee gets for the “hero with the feet of clay” approach, it’s interesting he just can’t let the heroes be anything other than infallible in a fight.
Thor and Iron Man would be interesting inversions of this rule as Stan Lee envisioned them, because while they were both extremely powerful, they spent their early years constantly plagued by glaring and repetitive weaknesses (Thor by turning into limping Donald Blake every time he dropped his hammer for a minute, Tony by suffering more heart attacks than Aunt May and often in the middle of battle). Though I suppose they fell into the traditional DC external weakness camp, similar to Superman and Kryptonite or Green Lantern and yellow.
Another instance of Lee “correcting” the art seems to be a moral backfilling of Kirby’s resolutions. Jack turns Skrulls into cows, a genuinely inhumane punishment, and Stan backfills by saying the Skrulls would suddenly rather be anything but Skrulls, so this is okay. Reed pulls that kid off his motorcycle (no doubt wrecking the bike, off panel) and treats him like shit, as Jeff noted, but then Lee backfills by having the kid say, more or less, “Cool! This will really impress the fellas!” So Reed’s Fantastic Dickery is excused.
(And that’s how far I’ve gotten–well, as far as the Shark Copter. So much more to enjoy … Great ep, gentlemen!)
Truly awesome podcast! I’m half way through and I’m slowing down to savor it more and page through my archive edition.
It strikes me that the word Fantastic might have been more closely associated with the weird back then, as in science fiction and fantasy often refereed to Fiction of the Fantastic–I believe there was an old fantasy Pulp called Fantastic, in fact. I personally am convinced that Stan and Jack came deeply out of the pulp magazine science fiction tradition…in a way you’d never see in modern creators who are seeped in comics, tv movies and video game lore.
That intro…
tears…
should have sent a poet…
Shorter episodes? But if the episodes were EVEN LONGER, think how your powers would grow! That’s why the dinosaurs died out – they wouldn’t go to three hours. Imagine if you did a three hour podcast and went back to two and a half, you’d get concentrated podcast powers etc etc
Now step in front of this ray! Hurry up!
Haven’t downloaded the episode yet, but 183MB?!
Enjoyed this much more than I thought I would, considering the FF has always been one of my least-favorite Marvel concepts, and I’ve never read the Lee/Kirby stuff (chicken & egg?). But maybe I missed something — what’s the plan regarding alternating between Baxter Building and Wait, What? Are you still planning 2 WW’s per month? Or does BB replace one of them?
Two Wait Whats AND a Baxter Building every month, true believer. Because you demanded it!
I was listening to this on the drive home, and I had to pull over, i was laughing so hard at the reveal of Alicia’s true family.
Superb! This is the fourth podcast I’ve seen that tries to review the FF issue by issue, and it’s the only one that gets it right, IMO. And not just because you mention my site :) It’s a perfect balance of irreverent fun with respect and insight. You pointed out quite a few things I’d missed, and made me change my view on at least one item,
Reviewing the FF is a really big task. The Fantastic Fourcast basically just reads the issues. The Fantasticast is just there to have a laugh. Nothing wrong with both approaches but I like to dig deeper. The Comic Geek Speak reviews tried to do them justice, but the regulars on that show don’t really know the books. So I didn’t get my hopes up when I heard of your version. But it was perfect! Naturally I would have preferred non stop in depth analysis, but that’s just me – you probably want more than one listener. So again, I think the balance is perfect: fun, respect, analysis, and the “wow!” factor. And you didn’t completely rip up issue 7, which is always a good sign.
Usually at this point I reply with all my nit picks, but I don’t have any. Obviously I would defend all the “weak” issues and argue they have underlying strengths, but that’s just an opinion. Keep up the good work, guys.
Looking forward to the next one.
Well, that was the best podcast of the year. But you get 11 chances to top it.
I’ve been reading a few of these and they really are less impressive than when I, like Terence, was reading them in Marvel UK reprints. But they are amazing, so much creativity and chance and growth.
I could never stand Alicia, she was so ruddy wet, the perfect princess. I don’t believe she’s Matt Murdoch’s sister, him not having been born blind and a,l, but your flight of fancy didn’t half give me the giggles. Actually, Alicia probably isn’t blind, just pretending as an excuse to feel men up. That explains the perfect sculptures and ‘feelings’.
I was surprised you didn’t give Lee and Kirby a kicking for totally sidelining Sue in the Blackbeard story – kept as a hostage while the menfolk had the adventure? Unless Sue and Vic had their own adventure in those 48 hours she was captive. It’s not like she doesn’t have form with FF baddies. ‘Oh Victor, you’re so DREAMY’.
A detail from issue #1 you guys didn’t mention was that the FF were based in “Central City” instead of New York.
So I realize that I am waaaaay late mentioning this but maybe it will help someone.
In the podcast, you mentioned that you’re reading from the Git Corp FF/Silver Surfer DVDs, which are wildly expensive. Anyone wanting to legally obtain some pdfs can still get them for less if they buy the 44 Years of the Fantastic Four DVD. No Silver Surfer, but all the FF. Currenly going for $35 (used) or so on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000EDGO2Q/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used
That is a tremendous tip, Tex. Thank you!
BTW, You’re reading all of these in a year? Hoo boy, I’m not sure I can keep up and I don’t even record 3 podcasts a month. Don’t kill yourselves with this. I’d rather hear you guys enjoy 40 years of FF than sprint through em.
Seconded. There is tremendous depth in these issues. It would be easy to do a month of podcasts just on a single issue. There are plenty of quick overviews online already, but in-depth reviews are very rare.
Thirded.
LOVE THIS! Starting reading the full run of F.F. a month ago and ran across this purely by accident. Looking forward to next months episode.
I’ve just found this podcast. Thanks, it’s my sort of thing. I liked your discussion of the change in how the origin was presented in #1 and #11. Isn’t there a reasonable reading that the #1 version is what really happened, including their horror, and the #11 version is a slightly confused and more pleasant version as they are now happier about it all? They’re telling us the story, not the narrator.
I guess you have seen by now that Reed’s war experiences did come back in FF and SFAHHC. In that vein, does anyone know if there’s any WW2 action for that brooding (sexy) maverick, Thunderbolt Ross? Roy Thomas must have put him in an issue of The Invaders, at least!
I’ll go back and listen to your Avengers read through, but one of my favourite examples of Stan under-cutting Jack because of his Mary-Sues is the cover of Avengers #22, where cap is cowering before Powerman’s attack (he’s been enchanted…) and Stan;s copy is ‘See Captain America’s Sensational Battle With Powerman!’
Wait, why was Reed Richards in the OSS and not in the Manhattan Project? That’s the story!
The first episode just came up in my collection of podcasts to try, on 4/4/2016 — auspicious date? I only listen during my commute, so I didn’t wrap up until this morning. It was a fun flashback, but ghod’s honest truth, I don’t know if I’m up for the entire 416 issue run. I’ll download a couple more and add them to the queue.
Thanks for giving us a try! I can’t speak to how well we discuss the material but, if you’re a Kirby fan, I think the issues from the height of his run until the time of his departure are well worth revisiting.