You said it, Vandal. You said it all.
Hello, I must be going!
To Portland!
(Oregon.)
Hmm, that required more clarification than I had planned. Nonetheless, it is true. So, you know, I’ve got to pack my special waffleware, my Graeme McMillan cosplay outfit, my map of the maze of secret passageways in Powell’s Books, that special shrug I only use when somebody mentions Voodoo Doughnuts, and more.
Thus, here are the show notes just the way Thomas Hobbes conceived of them: Nasty, Brutish, and Short. (Also the name of the unsuccessful competitor to Bone Thugs-n- Harmony I was in back in the day.) We hope you enjoy them, us, the accompanying podcast, and your place in the universe. (Oh, which reminds me, I gotta get the address of that floatation tank place near Graeme!)
OH, AND HOLY HELL, BEFORE I FORGET: Graeme and I are BOTH guests on the only movie podcast that has ever existed or will exist in pan-dimensional spacetime: Travis Bickle on the Riviera! Listen to Sean Witzke, Graeme, and Jeff talk Carrie, Funny Face, The Trip to Italy, and even a little bit of….superheroes! We may not be on that link when you first click on it, but keep following up. That sucker is going up today, giving you a double dose of Wait, What action! (And only a single dose of Sean Witzke, but that’s okay, you only need a single dose of Sean to clear up that nasty infection, as well as most of the helpful bacteria in your GI tract.)
Where was…oh, right. The notes for this show:
00:00-23:07: This podcast, as you will soon discover, was recorded on Jeff’s wedding anniversary and the day of Scotland’s historic vote for independence. We don’t talk so much about the former, but about the latter? We have some thoughts. And for those who would actually like some comic book talk with their comic book podcast, tune in around 10:28 to hear Jeff talk about the “insights” the debate over Scottish independence has given him about Mark Millar and Grant Morrison. Discussed: conservative liberals, liberal conservatives, lying liars, liberal opportunists, and many more permutations of same.
23:07-41:03: And here come some comics! More specifically, Grant Morrison comics. Super-specifically, Annihilator by Grant Morrison and Frazer Irving,G and Multiversity: Society of Super-Heroes, by Grant Morrison, Chris Sprouse, Karl Story, Walden Wong, and Dave McCraig. Graeme has yet to read Annihilator, so you get to hear a lot of Jeff, but we’ve both read Multiversity: SOS so there’s a lot of excited yapping and verbal scrambling around the furniture from both of us. Come for the Morrison talk, stay for the weary tone in Graeme’s voice when he talks about the Darkseid War!
41:03-47:18: Speaking of DC, a bit of discussion about Batman Future’s End #1 and Batman and Robin: Future’s End #1, and a dissection of how the two books work, as well as what the two titles do differently.
47:18-51:38: Batwoman: Future’s End #1 sounds pretty terrible, but almost appealingly so? Warning: Graeme spoils the whole issue for us (but….almost appealingly so?) necessitating a certain amount of covering your ears and going “la, la, la! can’t hear you! la, la, la!” if you want to go into it cold.
51:38-55:42: Graeme also goes full metal spoiler on the Wonder Woman/Superman & Wonder Woman Future’s End issues by Charles Soule and Co., which he touched on in an earlier W,W? post and develops a bit more here.
55:42-1:03:25: Zen koan: if you tell a story about playing superheroes with your nieces at a park playground…and if your story has a cameo from an award-winning cartoonist…and that cartoonist tells a story about that award and the difficulties it presents getting into the Smithsonian…are you still talking about comics? Jeff humbly attempts to answer this timeless riddle.
1:03:25-1:09:31: All of the above was an intro to Jeff quickly talking about talking two books he’s read in the last week or two including: Demon by Jason Shiga and Sirens #1 by George Perez. (Don’t worry, he doesn’t confuse one for the other and then just pretend like he was talking about both the whole time.)
Yikes! Glad this is just a comic book…
1:09:31-1:50:49: Which bring us to….Avengers time! Yes, Graeme and I read Avengers #201-225 for your sins (and for our sins, you have to hear us talk about it). Discussed: the betrayal of Bill Mantlo; Who Weathers The Weathermen; Graeme turns into a bowl of Rice Krispies at one point; The ghost of Jim Shooter; the destruction of Hank Pym; the handling of The Wasp; the romance of Tony Stark and Jan Van Dyne; whether we should keep paying for Marvel Unlimited; strange cameos; Beast and Wonder Man a la Infantino; Moondragon and the inversion of the Shooter narrative; how to make superheroes grow up; and more. Here, have a screenshot or two!
Yikes (again)!
Yikes (the finale)!
1:50:49-2:06:01: Trying to figure out if there’s comic news we should be discussing, we turn our gaze to the wonder that is Alison Bechdel winning a MacArthur Genius Grant and ponder other cartoonists we’d love to see get the award. (Don’t worry: only one of us picks Jim Shooter.) [Disclaimer: neither of us pick Jim Shooter.] [Further disclaimer: both of us talk like Ms. Bechdel is the first cartoonist to receive the Genius grant, completely overlooking Ben Katchor. We regret the error.]
2:06:01-end: Moving toward closing comments! Graeme tells us what he’s got on his desk to read, what we hope to talk about in the future, and Jeff’s upcoming trip to the PDX. And then: closing comments! Including places to look for us at—Stitcher! Itunes! Twitter! Tumblr! and, of course, on Patreon where, as of this count, 78 patrons make this whole thing possible.
Okay, so here is a link to the podcast for those of you who don’t like the play button thing we have going on:
And here’s a link to our actual RSS feed. I know it says iTunes in the name, but believe me, it should work with any RSS feeder you might like.
http://theworkingdraft.com/ItunesRSS.xml
And, again, Stitcher! iTunes! Patreon! Waffle Window! (Oh, Farm Fusion, how I’ve missed you!)
Hey everybody I’m going to be the shill in the comments and say that the direct link for the Wait What / Bickle crossover http://www.factualopinion.com/the_factual_opinion/2014/09/jetson-meets-the-flintstones.html if you want 2 more hours of talky talk on your monday afternoon.
So, on the Millar/liberal conservative thing. For me as a Scot (and Graeme is welcome to disagree), I think there’s two things worth considering:
1) ‘liberal’ is not a word that has currency in Scottish, UK or even European discussions as it relates to social policy. The reason for that is that a) the battle has been won and enshrined in the European constitution/treaty (so a conservative – small c – position on civil rights is that equality is the guiding principle, a radical position is that there is a moral absolute) and b) that the melding of moral issues to mainstream party politics is peculiarly north American. I think you would have a really hard time finding leftist Scots that actively identified as ‘liberal’ that weren’t specifically citing the American political definition. It is perfectly consistent with European politics to be a leftist, while holding views on what represents morality and whether its the state’s responsibility to dictate it that are not shared by other leftists.
2) I think the best way to think of socialism in a Scottish context is like a state religion, by which I mean it is intrinsic to many Scots’ world-view and belief system as we are raised with it. We continue to identify the word and the broad principles even if our own personal politics deviate from it (‘I can’t believe they’re raising council tax again’, ‘the firefighters shouldn’t be allowed to go on strike’).
It’s the same that so many people can identify as Christian without ever seeming to have heard the Sermon on the Mount, let along putting its tenets into action.
It’s camp 2 that I’d put Millar in – someone who passionately believes himself to be a socialist, and considers the principle tenets sacred, even if he doesn’t embody them in any meaningful way.
For future reference: Kevin H’s name is pronounced HIGH-zing-gah (source for this is the About the Author page in Curses).
I feel like giving Jaime Hernandez the genius grant wouldn’t be too far from giving it to Paul Pope. He also probably has enough money to follow his muse and more or less seems to be doing so.
I really love your Avengers retrospective (and was excited when I got to read along with some). Please don’t stop talking about them at issue 300. The DVD goes all the way up to issue 500. Talk about them all!
So glad you’re digging them, MM, although I have to say this may be the most terrifying request Graeme and I have received yet.
Currently, I think we can only survive 300 issues…but keep your eyes peeled for our 2015 reading list announcement!
You can tell Captain America is a Real Super Hero because he sweatily works out in the Avengers Mansion gym in full costume. Whereas I am thinking about quitting my gym because they took away the treadmills that have the little fans built into them.
Great podcast, guys!
Thanks, Flasshe! I’m right there with you on the treadmill thing.
I have also found Unlimited to be lacking recently and it’s mainly that the focus of what they are posting now is all newer stuff. I just don’t see any older stuff being added even after many emails requesting just gaps in runs to be filled in.
I love the Stern run of Avengers so much is there any way the next pod can just be a discussion of that run?
Not the next pod (which drops October 6) but I would bet the podcast after that is going to be chock full of Stern Avengers talk!
I have my problems with that infamous story, but not the same ones you guys mention. I think Shooter actually did a good job convincing us that Hank had gone insane, and wasn’t just being an asshole. Throughout the story it’s set up so that Hank knows what he’s doing is wrong and hates himself for it, but can’t control himself and acts on manic, angry impulse. I even think Jan’s behavior is believable up to a point, because she knows that this raving loon is not the man she married, and she really does love him and want the old Hank back, but ultimately has to take care of her needs first. (And yes, technically Hank IS the man she married in these comics, since she married him when he was in a chemical-induced fugue state, but the less said about that the better). Shooter has plenty of problems as a writer and editor, but the dissolution of Hank and Jan’s marriage actually worked for me, at least.
What I do NOT buy, however, is the incompetent and even abominable behavior of the other Avengers. They clearly see that Hank is flipping out and being verbally abusive towards the Wasp, but they take him on the mission against Elfqueen anyway. When Hank shoots the surrendering Elfqueen (which really was an honest mistake, and something he might’ve done even if he were lucid but didn’t know that she was surrendering), they put him before a kangeroo court of the big three and tell him that he’s at risk of expulsion, as though being put on trial is going to do any favors for his mental state. Which it doesn’t, because he builds a giant robot to attack them in a pathetic attempt to win back their favor, and after that they just abandon Hank. Except when he’s working for Egghead, where they show up to capture and further humiliate him.
Nobody besides the Wasp, who’s obviously too close to the situation, makes any meaningful attempt to get Hank help. There are no interventions, no offers of therapy, no investigations of WHY Hank’s gone from an upstanding founding member to a dangerously unhinged mad scientist. Not even Jarvis, who’s otherwise one of the kindest and most sympathetic souls would could find, does anything more than say “oh, he’s strong, he’ll get through it”.
It gets even worse with the issue where Tony dates Jan, because he’s flat-out lying to her about who he really is, and Captain America is less concerned with him manipulating Jan into sleeping with someone she wouldn’t otherwise but him violating the Bro Code and hurting Hank’s feelings (a too little, too late display of concern for Hank’s welfare). Not to mention that a few issues later, Tony up and disappears from the Avengers, having descended into alcoholic despair in his own book. But at least that has the excuse of “it’s in the character’s solo book, of course the Avengers can’t do anything”, so there’s a justification for why they’re letting another founding member sleep on the streets and drink himself to death.
I can’t think of any other superhero team with such a long, rich, and storied history of completely ignoring the mental health problems of their members.
And I can’t believe I missed that bit where Jarvis whines about “Big Brother ensuring EVERYONE succeeds”, and Captain America agrees that it’s foolish. Dude, Cap, you’re not just a superhero, you’re the superheroiest of superheroes in the Marvel Universe. You save peoples’ lives regardless of how much money they have or how little they might or might not deserve it. What, do you want Tony Stark to privatize the Avengers? Do people now have to be on a pre-paid plan in order to be rescued? “Oh, there’s a tsunami in East Timor? Screw that Noise, they can’t pay our premiums!”
Captain America believes that any man is free to go as far and high as his wits, courage, determination, and a massive government-funded research program will carry him. It worked for him!
So I guess that Nazi spy did us all a favor by killing Dr. Erskine so we couldn’t all be enabled by government Super-Soldier Serum Hand-Outs.
I was traveling so I was never really in the right place to log in and reply but: holy crap, did this thread amuse me!
This is the period when Shooter was trying to get Colan to draw a more conventional comic. This is part of the reason Colan’s work looks less Colan-y. Colan felt harassed by his efforts, which was mostly why he moved to DC.