Time, time, time…see what’s become of me…

(And the worst part is I have no doubt Graeme will read this and think of the Bangles cover, while I definitely have Simon & Garfunkel in mind.  Oh, the curse of being young at heart and old everywhere else.)

Jeff here with the latest episode for your enjoyment (see above).  And although “Hazy Shade of Winter” is really about, I dunno, the passage of time and how part of growing old enough to really appreciate life is pretty much exactly at the point you realize you are also going to die and life will proceed on without you just as it did before, I’m kind of using it for a quick catch-all for “Holy cow, we are so incredibly grateful for your Patreon support and for getting so much of it so soon, although because of that I am actually a little bit sandbagged with stuff to do!”



Graeme has a post coming up in the next day or two, I’m rushing to get something put together for later and then we have to do it all over again?  That’s amazingly great!

But, for whatever reason, this week’s show notes may end up feeling a little light, maybe?  I don’t know if that’s actually the reason why, though.  It may well have been the fact that, for whatever reason, Graeme and I didn’t jump all over the place topic-wise, so it’s not like there’s a lot of changed subjects to map out?  Or maybe I’m just getting used to changing gears and after we’ve had a few of these, I’ll be able to switch seamlessly between writing show notes, my weekly entries, and the other writing I’m trying to press forward on?

Anyway, after my really impressive bout of salesmanship, join me after the cut:  show notes!

00:00-09:39: Hi, it’s our sexy slow jams opening…without any sexy slow jams? Do friends let friends listen to Kenny G? We start off a little slow thanks to rhetorical questions like these, so we ease into things by talking about our progress with our Patreon campaign, the fact we are writing weekly posts over here on this site, and Jeff’s most recent post about the latest five or so issues of Batman Eternal and the first three issues of Superman/Wonder Woman, before moving on to talk about one of the more pressing topics of the day…Graeme’s dogs! Which pair of comic book characters do Graeme’s dogs remind

Jeff of?  The answer may surprise you!  (It did Graeme, enjoyably enough…)
09:39-29:08: Speaking of the apocalypse (human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together…mass hysteria!) (and I should mention that although I’m about as far from a Ghostbusters fanboy as you can get, I’ll never not be in the tank for  Murray’s delivery of that line), Graeme got comp copies from…Marvel? So he’s been reading the first trade of Miracleman and, thanks to his magical public library, a copy of the Captain Britain Omnibus Direct Market Edition. Whereas by contrast, Jeff’s public library system looks like this:


Screen Shot 2014-06-15 at 3.47.03 PM



He wasn’t in issue #1 so here’s some straight-up Kirby.

So there’s some talk about early works from the very young Alan Moore, of which (unsurprisingly) our opinions differ. Also included: discussion of the run that precedes Moore on Captain Britain by David Thorpe, which has been collected as the Captain Britain Omnibus Direct Market Edition;  Chris Claremont, Mark Millar, Silver Age DC, Bronze Age Marvel, and mo(o)re.
29:08-46:27: Graeme prepares to give us a list of the majority of the stuff has read since the last podcast. But before he can: our discussion of Infinity Man and The Forever People #1, by Dan Didio, Keith Giffen and Scott Koblish! Come for the ambivalence, stay for Graeme’s predictions about DC’s next event!
46:27-51:14: And because this is turning out to be a very Keith Giffeny podcast, Graeme has read the collection of Threshold Vol. 1: The Hunted (The New 52) (Threshold: the New 52!), a series from DC from last year written by Mr. Giffen. It’s like The Hunger Dogs Games in Space! Apparently! Jeff is writing these notes and still hasn’t read it!

51:14-1:06:20: And because Graeme is continuing to hold the floor, we talk about Future’s End, the non-Batman Eternal weekly DC is publishing. Graeme compares it — favorably! — to 52. We talk about in comparison and contrast to Countdown to Final Crisis, Batman Eternal #10, Chris Claremont, the nature of weekly publishing, and more.  And then it’s on to…
1:06:20-2:03:54: AVENGERS! Yes, we are actually talking about what we told you we were going to talk about! Lo, the podcast’s prophecy of an hour ago has come true! We start to discuss issues #114-141 of vol. 1 of Marvel’s Avengers, with scripts by Steve Englehart (and one or two by Roy Thomas…two, I think?), and art by Bob Brown, John Buscema, Sal Buscema, Don Heck, Dave Cockrum, Joe Staton and a newcomer called George Perez. Among the subjects of our gabbing:  The Beast, old and new; Matt Fraction’s Hawkeye; The Avengers/Defenders War; the love rhomboid of Vision, The Scarlet Witch, Mantis and The Swordsman; The Vision vs. The Silver Surfer; The Swordsman vs. Valkyrie; the compassion of Thor; Warehouses that are Starships that are Death Traps (incidentally also the title of Jeff’s favorite prog rock album); strong female characters, the ‘70s edition; Hank Pym; one of the best drawings of Scarlet Witch ever; the movie cameo you were never expecting. It’s surprise after surprise including how the number ofissues we actually end up discussing (hint: we have 27 to discuss; we come closer to discussing the sum of 2 and 7.)

Best Scarlet Witch ever

Best Scarlet Witch ever

2:00:04-2:03:54: Remember up above when Graeme promised to list the stuff he’s read?   Here’s his list and remember, as he mentions in the podcast, if there’s something  here we don’t discuss on this podcast (which is probably most of it) and you want him to write about it…let us know in the comments for this episode: Umbral #6; Mighty Avengers #10 and #11; The Fuse #4; Batman and Frankenstein #31; Shadowman Endtimes #1; X-O Man of War #25; Eternal Warrior #8; Harbinger #23; Ray #1; Bloodshot #22; Archer & Armstrong #20; Quantum & Woody #10; Unity #7; Magnus Robot Fighter #4; X-Men No More Humans GN and Spider-Man: Family Business GN; Big Trouble in Little China #1; Dead Letters #3; Empty Man #1; Lumberjanes #3; The Woods #2; Starlight #4; Shutter #3 (which Jeff and Graeme agree they need to discuss further at a later point in time); last couple of issues of 2000 A.D., and That’s Because You’re A Robot (which we both read and we both enjoyed).
2:03:54-2:08:56: and here is Jeff’s list (as always, much, much smaller than Graeme’s): That’s Because You’re A Robot, Bee and Puppycat #2; Starlight #4; Crossed: Badlands #55; Walking Dead #128; Shutter #3; Caliban #1-3; Batman ’66 Meets The Green Hornet #1; Big Trouble in Little China #1; and Judge Dredd Mega-City Two: City of Courts #5 as well as some digital stuff: Thor #140-142; Web of Spider-Man #6 and The Marvel Assistant-Sized Spectacular #1 (both to admire out the work of cartoonist Xurxo Penalta); and the first three issues of Winter Soldier by Ed Brubaker and Butch Guice (and since Jeff is talking about stuff he’s read via the Marvel Unlimited app, Graeme mentions he’s read the entire first She-Hulk series by Dan Slott as well, curse the man’s speedy eyes).
2:08:56-end: Closing comments! We hope you are digging the podcasts and the new website and the weekly written content. We are still getting our sea legs under us, but there is in fact more to come. Be sure to stop by and see us at,, and and hopefully this episode’s closing theme music will distract you from hearing Jeff use the phrase “so much beautiful” 100% non-ironically!

[EDIT:]  Oh, and apparently some of you people might prefer the link for downloading purposes, too?  Sorry about that!  You can listen to it above, on our RSS feed, or use this link here:

Wait, What: Ep. (15)2: Forever, People


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25 comments on “Wait, What? Ep. (15)2: Forever, People

  1. lurker Jun 16, 2014

    Umm, where’s the download link?

  2. Rob G Jun 16, 2014

    Jeff and Graeme,

    You gentlemen (guys) never fail to entertain.

    Word on social media has it that Ernie and Gus-Gus prefer “Three Dog Night” over Simon and Garfunkel and The Bangles. They also like howling along to “The Animals” and the “Pet Shop Boys.” Their favorite song is “I Wanna Be Your Dog” by Iggy Pop. Rumor (not Bruce and Demi’s kid) has it that Gus-Gus and Ernie prefer the Waffle Window’s Kibble Waffle over the Spam Waffle. Good choice!

    Anyhow… Bravo! Kudos!

    • Jeff Lester Jun 16, 2014

      I was hoping you’d appreciate it, Rob G., considering I was repeating your idea (right?), but, holy cow. You broke out that Pet Shop Boys pun like you’d been saving it for exactly such a situation. Well-played.

      • Rob G Jun 23, 2014

        Yes, Mr. Lester, you are correct sir! Your mind is like a steel trap.

        I should have just stuck with the Pet Shop Boys reference and left it at that since Graeme’s pups are British, right? Even though they live in Portland? I assume they have their papers (and haven’t peed on them).

  3. So when do we get the “dot dot dot MIND CONTROL” t-shirt?

    Review requests (in order of my need to hear/read about them): Umbral, Caliban, Starlight, Empty Man, Dead Letters, the Woods.

    • Graeme McMillan Jun 17, 2014

      Jeff! Merchandise idea that could be awesome!

      (And I shall touch on… at least one of those books in the reviews I’m just about to write.)

      • Aw man, that’s probably better than my long-delayed W,W! t-shirt design, which I’ve been meaning to toss you a mockup of. Basically, the W,W! name and link, and then a large word ballon, with one word. One word.

        • If I were creating a Wait, What tee shirt, the wee motto would be ‘Here’s the Thing’ (hence my comment once that you could rename the show Presenting Ben Grimm, which went over your heads/was rightly ignored).

          (Has anyone else has a comment they’re typing utterly obscured by the WW? strap? Most strange and irksome!)

          • The only issue with that is that “Here’s the Thing” was the name of Alec Baldwin’s podcast… not to ruin it for anyone.

  4. Man, I just — not to defend a relaunch I haven’t read, but Kirby’s Forever People were terrible cardboard cutouts of characters. Even on my third read of the Fourth World omnibi, I still couldn’t keep straight Mark Moonrider and Serifan, and the only reason I could remember Vykin the Black was because he was the black one, which sums up all of his distinguishing characteristics. Beautiful Dreamer’s character never seemed to move beyond “Hey check out my tits.” The sole interest with her was in wondering how she kept her rag from falling off. Maybe Didio and Giffen did a bad job, but surely any characterization at all would rate an improvement on none.

  5. Awesome episode as always, gents. If I may add my voice to the review requests, I’d love to hear Graeme talk about the two Marvel OGNs and Dead Letters. So great to have you bothback!

  6. Thanks for another great podcast!

    I’m glad I just read the IM&tFP over a shoulder, rather than buying. Agreed with most of the points you, er, pointed out, but I’m surprised you guys didn’t touch on something that now I’m not sure I actually saw, since it seemed so, so wrong. Was there an intimation that New Genesis was training these kids to the point of indoctrination, as thought Didio was heading towards a reveal that the Highfather was really running a fascist state? If so, what an amazingly anti-Kirby concept (if you read most of Kirby as an effort against fascism and the loss of the self).
    But yeah, stinkeroo. And I do love me some Giffen art.

  7. Hey, now that I’ve ingratiated myself with my last comment, Review Requests!

    2000 AD, That’s Because You’re a Robot, Caliban, Dredd: Mega-City Two, Web Of Spider-Man #6, Winter Soldier.

  8. datom25 Jun 18, 2014

    Smashing podcast, gentlemen. I only stumbled upon Wait, What about 10 episodes pre-relaunch and had no idea there were other Scottish (or indeed, any nationality) Englehart fans. You should devote a whole podcast to Captain America #180 and the ramifications of Cap’s decision to pick ‘Nomad’ over ‘The Gypsy’ as a nom de plume and the greatest meta-scene in comics history.

    Review requests:

    Mega-City Two:5 – because it’s the best miniseries I’ve read this year

    That’s Because I’m A Robot – because it’s the best (only?) one-shot I’ve read this year

    Big Trouble In Little China #1 – because I have absolutely no idea if I enjoyed it or not and really, really need someone more knowledgeable than me to tell me if I liked it.

  9. Take all the time you need to work through the Englehart stuff, if we get hours like the one here.

    My review request: Mighty Avengers! Would love to read Jeff’s take on the early issues on the Unlimited App, and Graeme’s opinion of the two most recent, which I found REALLY good. Even the art!

  10. Umbral is a terrible title for a comic book, it makes me think of pots of paint for Airfix kits.

    I remember the Dave Thorpe Captain Britain feeling so fresh and new – at last, a Captain Britain solo strip that actually British. The Hulk Weekly Cap/Black Knight strip was fun, but solidly in the realm of UK weekly comic adventure strips, not very Marvel superheroes at all. But this, this was fantastic ( I think I wrote a few times to Marvel telling them this, oh, the joy of teenage letterhacking).

    But I loved the Alan Moore stuff to bits too, the work by he and Alan Davis (with whom I share my June 18 birthday) felt so intense in the action scenes, so truly British in the soapy scenes. Wonderful stuff (more locs!).

    Talking of teenage letter-writing to comics, I remember getting a letter published in Warrior once – or maybe it was the fanzine Fantasy Advertiser, with which Graeme has passing familiarity – whingeing about thought balloons in comics. My point was that no one has perfectly formed-as-sentences internal monologues. Soon after that they started disappearing, and today I miss them like mad. Be careful what you wish for, eh?

    Thanks for praising Bob Brown, his art was always a welcome sight, it was so clean and open and just worked on the comics page. He’s my definitive Superboy artist.

    Anyroadup, thanks for a splendid episode.

  11. RJ Acero Jun 19, 2014

    Re:Infinity Man and The Forever People #1

    Ideally, this series would aim for a more eclectic tone. Think more Odd Future, less Melrose Place/Friends. I’d pass that suggestion along to DC editorial, but I have a bad feeling that DiDio’s ‘Odd Future-ish’ Forever People would read like Fat Albert & the Cosby Kids.

    Yeoman’s work as always gents.

  12. Interesting to hear people appreciating Dave Thorpe’s Captain Britain run, although the words that come to mind when I reread it are closer to “low-wattage meandering allegory” than anything more effusive. I do enjoy the contrast between the Thorpe and Moore material, it’s a proper truck-driver’s gear change.

    The other thing I wanted to mention is that Jeff keeps referring to Halo Jones as early Alan Moore material. It’s only early Alan Moore if Swamp Thing is — his first “proper” SotST issue was February 1984 and Halo Jones began in July of the same year.

  13. So as I listened to the talk of Threshold (which I do need to track down), it reminded me that Giffen was the artist brought in for the final issue of Peter David’s 25-issue run on Captain Marvel some ten years back, which also got incredibly meta about the story and the idea that characters went off for a reset when books get cancelled. Wonder if he’s been batting around his own take on that ever since?

    Also, I’d totally pictured Gus-Gus and Ernie as being larger (even though we also have a small dog who makes a large amount of noise). Glad to have faces to finally go with the barks.

  14. Great podcast guys. Loving the Englehart Avengers discussion – Avengers 114 was my first issue of The Avengers after reading the British reprints, and remains a personal favourite. Especially the cover.
    I think I’ve read Englehart explain that he never planned long term, but just threw characters in and went with the flow. Mantis was never originally planned to be the Celestial Madonna, but she outgrew her role as the slut sowing dissension amongst the male members; which is why when she married a tree and left Earth, he pulled in Moondragon to add another itch to the team dynamics.

    • Jeff Lester Jun 23, 2014

      I’m always a little iffy about taking Englehart at face value on some of his statements, especially after the fact. At the very least, some pieces of his Celestial Madonna storyline were in place at the start of his run–he says as much during the letter pages at the time–so it’s possible specific pieces like Mantis being the Celestial Madonna weren’t in place until later? But the story doesn’t make much sense any other way, so it’s hard to see what parts of the plan got changed up.

      I am more likely to believe something like him pulling in Moondragon at the last minute–although she serves a very specific purpose for Thor’s arc, she’s gone soon afterward. And there are little pieces like giving the Zodiac a super-cool spaceship that later helps in the battle against Thanos in #125 that seem like some clever spur of the moment thinking.

      Fortunately, whether planned or spontaneous, it’s really just a stellar read overall. Glad you’re digging the discussion because we’ve got more to come!

      • Great! Jeff and Graeme on Bronze Age Marvel runs is my ‘sweet spot’. Loved your read of Gerber’s Defenders many moons ago, and now Englehart ‘s Avengers….can I request Conway and Thomas’ Fantastic Four at some point?

  15. Carl Walker Oct 6, 2014

    Jeff, I only learned this recently, but inter-library loan (ILL) is actually free at the SFPL. I work not too far away, so I’ve even made use of it.

    And I can safely tell you that there’s only one other library in the Bay that has free ILL, so… stop complaining! :)

    • Jeff Lester Oct 7, 2014

      Ha! Okay, I promise to stop complaining and start figuring out how to actually use the damn thing (I have enough trouble with SFPL’s regular interface). Thanks, Carl!