Thanks to Gar Berner for Bringing The Super-Awesome!

Thanks to Gar Berner for Bringing The Super-Awesome!

Damn it, next year we’re going to have a contest centered around Graeme’s first Prog Rock album, The Moog Goo of Guy Pan or something because it’s quite a bummer to have my mug staring out from this post exclusively.

Anyway.  Once again, I have managed to go an entire night without sleep so let me apologize in advance for the dozens, if not thousands, of errors, typographical and otherwise, sure to pop up in this post.  (Also I need to get better at screenshotting Avengers pages.)  Things should improve scheduling-wise after this, and I can go back to make dozens, if not thousands, of errors, typographical and otherwise, for other reasons.

Ready for some show notes?  Some serious no-fooling two and three-quarters of an hour bare-knuckle podcasting?  Well, then.  I have just the thing for you!

00:00-40:51: Greetings! Cue up your Lonely Man Theme but don’t be fooled: even though we start by talking about the Incredible Hulk TV show, it takes a certain amount of time to get around to the comic book. But instead we stick to the TV side of things, with discussion of Tales of the Gold Monkey, B.J. and The Bear, and most especially Twin Peaks (and its return!). I’m going to point you to Graeme’s thoughts on the topic, with a touch of Abhay’s since we reference them in the convo but they’re definitely worth being reading on their own. We also discuss the TV show Manhattan about the building of the atomic bomb, The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes, and, of course, Gavin & Stacey and the current season of  New Girl. And if that wasn’t enough non-comics talk for you, we also talk about Jeff’s strange relationship with iPhones, old and new. Also also discussed: hatewatching things, artisanal douches, and babies and, uhhhhhh, what else do we usually talk about? Hmm…
40:51-57:09: Comics books! That’s right we eventually remember to talk about comic books! In fact, first off we dig deep into Batgirl #35, by Cameron Stewart, Brenden Fletcher and Babs Tarr. Tossed out there in our discussion; Gail Simone, Bob Haney, the phrase “evil 4chan DJ,” target audiences, and more. It’s a bit of a tussle, this discussion.
57:09-1:09:55: Graeme received copies of Trinity of Sin #1 by J.M. DeMatteis, Yvel Guichet, Jason Gorder and Gabe Eltaeb; Earth 2: World’s End #1 and #2 by more people than I’m getting paid to type; and Klarion #1 by Ann Nocenti and Trevor McCarthy; we also tussle a bit on this one, too. Tussle! It’s one of the all-time great words.

Also great is how Graeme calls me out on my shitty handling of percentages. (Wait, is that great?)
1:09:55-1:24:01: Changing gears a bit, Jeff feels there’s been a certain maximalism in comic books lately, a serious commitment to spectacle and too much. And never is that more true than with Transformers Vs. G.I. Joe #3 by Tom Scioli and John Barber. (Please note that we also tussle briefly over the public reaction to Seven Soldiers #1.) This tremendous and overwhelming book pretty much blew our tiny minds. Discussed: Copra, Kirby, Steranko, outsider art, and more.
1:24:01-1:59:18: Avengers Talk!! It’s time for Avengers Talk! This time we are discussing issues #227-250 by (mostly) Roger Stern, Al Milgrom, and Joe Sinnott. It’s almost impossible to talk about this title and not also talk about Marvel in the early Eighties and the heyday of the Jim Shooter editorial era. A really great run of issues with some tremendous steps forward in its handling of female characters (as embodied by Monica Rambeau, the new Captain Marvel). In fact, it’s possible to see the two issue wrap up of Spider-Woman’s book (issues #240-241) as a non-fucked-up version of Avengers #200. And of course, since issues #228-229 has to do with the redemption of Hank Pym, we once again revisit the handling of Hank Pym, the issues and meta-issues, the rewriting of history (comic book history and real life history); a brilliant connection Graeme makes about “yes, and” improvisation and the work of Steve Englehart; Spider-Man, Wife Beater; Tony Stark, Super-Lush; Kirby’s Eternals and Starlin’s Titans; and then…
1:59:18-2:14:01: Something is happening at Jeff’s door so he has to run away for a moment, and comes back and terrifies Graeme. And then we’re back to talking about Maelstrom, Al Milgrom and Joe Sinnott, and much, much, MUCH more.

Oh, and remember how I said I was terrible about screenshots?  Look at the stuff I thought was worth showing you guys:


Hawkeye namedropping Tom Stoppard!



Dr. Doom! Subpar rapper!


Al Milgrom: Prophet of Pop Culture to Come! (Shame about the spelling, though...)

Al Milgrom: Prophet of Pop Culture to Come! (Shame about the spelling, though…)

2:14:01-2:33:41: So.  Remember when we said we could wrap this up in under two hours?

 photo 57367-simpsons_nelson_chinese-haha.jpg
Turns out, there’s still the overdue discussion of the winners of our “Are You Feeling The Feeling That I’m Feeling” giveaway! This has a lot of us reading entries and just laughing aloud—maybe not our most professionalmoment—but we wouldn’t have if the work wasn’t so awesome. Because we are laughing all over these amazing entries, you’ll probably get a better bang for your buck reading them all below. Thanks for everyone who entered! We are terrified by how much funnier you guys are than us, and yet we’re the ones talking on air.

The stunning entries by our amazing listeners:

Gar Berner:
“If You’re Not in the World That’s Coming, I Don’t Wanna Be There (Lila’s Song)”

Matt Sabonis:
“Milk for Midnight (for Oreos in Bed)”

Chris Mastrangelo:
1. Can’t Comb My Beard Without You Babe
2. Cold Waffles At Midnight
3. It’s Raining (In My Heart)
4. Tonight’s The Night, Unless It Isn’t, In Which Case Tomorrow Night May Be The Night
5. Rapping Intermission
6. Your Chicken And Tomatoes
7. Taxidermist of Love
8. Don’t Make Me Wrassle Your Heart
9. Snaky Woman
10. A Sexy Little Lady Called Sex
11. Greensleeves [traditional]
12. This Jazzy Sax Solo’s For You

Dave Clarke [the lost entry!]:
1. List heavy show notes
2. Love is a savoury waffle
3. Your chicken and tomatoes
4. Rapping Intermission
5. Portland (feat. DJ Ernie and MC Gus-Gus)
6. I don’t care what people say (I like me some Tony Daniel)
7. Is this thing recording?
8. By the miracle of the internet
9. Download code
10. Sing us out

Christopher Beckett:
3. Ghoulash – Little Bits in the Sauce
4. Babe, I’m Your One Man Army Corps
5. Gimme That Kenny G.
6. We Are Human … Like An Animal
7. Pinky Winehardt Goes to Washington
8. Smooooooooooth
9. I Hear You In My Dreams (& it scares me)
10. Push and Pool
11. A Lonely Heart Gathers No Moss
12. Heart U 4Evah

Derek Moreland/Nathaniel Quietly/Voodoo Ben:
1. “Erotic Vampire LOVE Heist”
2. “You Wafflin’, Baby”
3. “The Cleanse”
5. “Your Chicken and Tomatoes”
6. “Rapping Intermission”
7. “Binging (Delillo) (feat. Lisa “Left Eye” Lopez)
8. “U R My Malomar”
9. “MmHmm MmHmm MmHmm / Interesting”
10. “Booty”
11. “The Cleanse (Remix) (feat. Missy Elliot)
12. “Cinema Mortalis” (instrumental)

Paul Spence:
Baby Has Her Biscuits in The Oven And Her Buns In My Bed
She Feels Like A New Man Tonight
How Can I Miss You If You Won’t Leave Me
You Can’t Have Your Kate and Edith Too
She Got The Ring And I Got The Finger
I Keep Forgettin’ I Forgot About You
The Pint of No Return
Please Bypass This Heart
The Wait What Waffle Window Wonton Watusi

Brendan O’Hare:
1. Hot San Francisco Mornings
2. Am I Leavenworth Your Love?
3. Skip This Track (If You Ain’t Makin’ Love (Right Now))
4. Pause Like I Know You
5. R U Glad I Didn’t Say Banana? ft. Prince
6. Rapping Intermission
7. The World Through Rose Color Asses
8. I’ll Be the One to Be the One
9. Takes All Kinds
10. One at a Time
11. Take it All One at a Time
12. Your Chicken and Tomatoes
Hidden Track: No Stinky Fish
Stu West:
(Just a) Love-Struck Honky
Quiche for One
Ever-Approaching Grandpa of Love
Paul Kupperberg Blues

Bonus track from David Wolkin:

“Graeme unintentionally dropped the best entry on the podcast: ‘My Individual Issues’”

Bonus Show Notes only track from David Wolkin (because my phone lost his text for four days): “Also: ’She Beatboxes, I Drop a Few.’ You guys write this shit yourselves!”

And, as a bonus bonus, here’s Voodoo Ben’s transcript of that “Behind The Music” hatchet job they did on me.  (They got most of it right, but man the stuff they got wrong still steams my clams):

Welcome back.

In 1993, Jeff Lester was on top of the world. His soothing R&B rhythms and clever lyrical wordplay were providing a clear and contrasting antidote to the rising grunge movement, and frequent (so would say continuous) airplay of his smash hit single “Your Chicken and Tomatoes” dominated the nation’s airways. Anticipation for Lester’s debut album was so high, in fact, that he was invited to perform the hit on that year’s MTV VMAs.

It was a surprise to everyone when, instead of breaking out what would become his signature tune, Lester instead chose to perform the melodic, more soulful “Erotic Vampire LOVE Heist” that evening. The emotional, heartfelt performance was met with only muted applause by a confused audience. It would be the first of several missteps that would eventually torpedo the once promising musician’s career.

Can You Feel the Feeling That I’m Feeling? released at number 17 on the Billboard Music Charts, with “Your Chicken and Tomatoes” slipping out of the top 100 a month after the album debuted. Supporters praised the album’s deft mix of R&B sound with literary, food, and comic book references – but it was too little, too late. The VMA backlash proved more than Lester could bear. He became disenchanted with “the scene”, as he referred to the industry, and pushed for “Cinema Mortalis”, an instrumental track totally at odds with his R&B sound, to be released as the album’s second single. (His producer, Babyface, fought for the much catchier “MmHmm MmHmm MmHmm/Interesting”, but was overruled by the artist.) It proved the final nail in Lester’s musical career. “Cinema Mortalis” was soundly ignored by the audience, and Lester vowed never to record again – a rising R&B star whose flame burned out too quickly.

See?  Not a single word about the debacle that was my cameo on Family Matters!  Galling.

2:33:41-2:46:03: Graeme gives us a preview of the amazing work you can now see on our Tumblr, leading to an all-too-brief conversation about the genius that is Bob Haney, and some of the weirdness about Marvel’s NYCC announcements.
2:46:03-end: “We got so far away from saying goodbye.” No, it’s not a song from Jeff’s album, that’s something we actually said. (Wolkin’s right, we do write this shit ourselves!) And it’s a sign that we really do need to be going. But, let us not forget: Tote bags! Places to look for us at—Stitcher! iTunes! Twitter! Tumblr again! and, of course, on Patreon where, as of this count, 82 patrons make this whole thing possible.  (And where our $10 and up patrons just got an exclusive video podcast from the Waffle Window!)

Okay, here’s the link. No idea if it’ll turn into a magical noise-playing thing so I’ll also add the link in a comment below all this nonsense so you can get to listening!

Thanks, and, as always, we hope you enjoy!


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23 comments on “Wait, What?, Ep. 161: Ours For Hours

  1. Jeff Lester Oct 20, 2014

    And here’s that link again for easy reference/copying and pasting:


    • I was wondering if you guys got my mixtape that I put together. Not sure if the email went through. – gary

  2. Jeff Lester Oct 20, 2014

    Ugh, and can you believe I lost an entry?! I am so terrible: check out Dave Clarke’s terrific entry (now added to the show notes).

    That’ll teach you to email me directly, Dave!

    (I am so mortified this entry got excluded: “I don’t care what people say (I like me some Tony Daniel)” and “Is This Thing Recording?” is a killer one-two punch!)

  3. Brendan Oct 21, 2014

    “Is This Thing Recording?” is really good. My favorite for some reason is “Don’t Make Me Wrassle Your Heart”.

  4. Such great entries, well done all. I laughed!

    As regards the Bruce Banner name change, I always suspected the truth was that they were avoiding bringing Bruce Wayne to mind. I don’t know any gay Bruces either. Well, apart from Bruce Wayne.

    Jeff, I got the less-stupidly big iphone 6 and its a huge improvement so far as battery life goes. And tomorrow my new iPad Air2 arrives, I really do hate myself.

    Batgirl has had the photographic memory for years but we’ve not seen it visualised like this previously. Further thoughts on that issue at me old blog thing.

    Given that, as Graeme, states, it was double sized for the regular $2.99 price, I’m OK with half of Earth 2 Worlds End being recap; I’d jumped off after James Robinson left so it was useful. I’m not OK with, as you say, the thing being unreadable by the second issue.

    Worse still, the experience has knackered my enjoyment of the Futures End weekly, with its 52 wannabe ways. Why on Earth have two weeklies, one set five years and 35 years from now, the other set in the present day with flashbacks – with the same cast? Here’s Mr Miracle doing something that’s not clear. And here also is Mr Miracle doing something that’s not clear, but later. Or maybe earlier. That Mr Terrific, he’s an asshole! He’s a hero!

    And so on.

    One nice surprise this week, mind, so far as Earth 2 goes, was the first issue of the retooled World’s Finest book, as Karen and Helena make way for Earth 2 Clark and Bruce. Lois Tornado narrates their life stories and it’s really rather good, with Paul Levitz back on form.

    I never got into Gavin and Stacey. That’s probably overstating. I never tried so much as a scene, because, well, James Corden. Jeff, did you ever catch a BBC sitcom called The Smoking Room? If not, try a bit:

    Loved the Avengers chat, as ever. While Hank’s verbal abuse and slapping of Jan was horrendous, I don’t accept that it HAD to be part of a pattern because ‘these things are never just one-offs’ (I paraphrase’). In this case, they were – Hank never hit Jan before or after, he wasn’t in the habit of yelling at her. There’s no excuse for hitting someone you purport to love, but let’s not make him a monster.

    • If you factor in the later revelation that Hank suffers from bipolar disorder, it becomes even harder to hold it against him when it’s clear he’s suffered from uncontrollable mood swings whose cause was undiagnosed and untreated for years.

  5. supergodmasterforce Oct 22, 2014

    I am so down with you guys talking about TV on regular basis.
    I’m sure others are probably also re-watching Twin Peaks at the moment so it was one of those happy coincidences to hear your take on the show (or was it?)

    I guess you’ll get a few suggestions in the comments here Jeff, here’s mine :
    Watch the Channel 4 series ‘Utopia’ (not the biodome-esque reality show) It is being remade by HBO at the moment, it is 2 series of 6 nearly perfect episodes.

    Watch the opening scene here:

    If you aren’t interested after watching that, then man I don’t know what to tell you.
    the best TV series that almost nobody watched -and it has comics in it too.

    • Yes, Utopia (only saw the first series) was quite interesting. Bone up on how Kubrick would frame his shots symmetrically and note the title treatments (the Utopia directors certainly did). Oh, also, too: it’s nuts.

    • Based on supergodmasterforce comments about utopia, seeing the opening scene clip and being sick from from work over the past two days I ended up watching both series of Utopia. Holy Shit is it good!

      Maybe not the best thing to watch when you have the flu though.

  6. Just got to the part where you two discuss G.I. Joe vs. Transformers, and you two should take a listen to a recent TMSIDK podcast from Jim Rugg, where he and Jasen Lex talk with Scioli and Ed Piskor about their current work. It’s a fascinating discussion. It can be found here:

  7. BrianMc Oct 22, 2014

    Is it too late (early?) to unearth a lost track?

    “How Should I Put This (You Know What I Mean)”

    Another great show. Loved the smart art commentary on the GI Joe/Transformers comic …. Really nice.

  8. On J.M. DeMatteis being old.

    In Marvel: The Untold Story, the average age of writers for Marvel in 1972 was 23. I think the majority of writers in (Marvel/DC) comics are now over 40*. I’m not sure of anyone writing for the big two under the age of 30. Is there anyone?

    *Last year I saw someone talking about how young a writer Jonathan Hickman was. At the time he was 40.

  9. Oh man! I totally wanted to hear Jeff go off (or on at length, whatever his preference) about Batman 35. My reaction to it was weird – I hated, hated, HATED ‘Death of the Family’, but that last page reveal got me crazy excited on a level I frankly did not expect.

  10. Re: Hank Pym & Spider-Man

    I think Graeme did a fine job of hinting at why Hank striking Jan has become a defining characteristic of his stories, while Spider-Man hitting Mary Jane has been forgotten. It has to be because the majority of fans have only a hazy idea of who Hank Pym is and the “beat his wife” aspects speaks most clearly to them from the void. By contrast, Spider-Man is many things to many people – some might define him by Lee, some by Ditko, some by Bendis, some by Slott, perhaps some by Stern – but amidst the hundreds of voices which have developed Spider-Man’s identity, fans haven’t allowed the beating of Mary Jane to define him (a moment written by Tom DeFalco, of all people). Fandom has collectively wished Spider-Man beating Mary Jane into the same cornfield as Mopee.

    If you two keep at this, one day you’ll reach the story where Chuck Austen tackles the hot-button “Hank hit Jan once” story a mere 20 years after it had already been settled. Keep it in mind, just in case the current issues have you feeling too optimistic.

  11. I would love to see you guys’ opinions on the Denny O’Neil/Luke McDonnell Iron Man comics of the time, since it’s touched on in this run of Avengers and has interesting parallels to the Hank Pym story. However, O’Neil’s Iron Man work IS the kind of credible, thoughtful, and ultimately uplifting treatment of addiction that you normally don’t see in super-fiction. It only recently got reprinted as part of Marvel’s Epic Collections (and even then there’s still a chunk that isn’t covered), but it’s absolutely brutal in not only how low Tony sinks, but how little he cares about his own deterioration. It’s a slow burn story, spread out over nearly four years of comics, which is probably why it wasn’t reprinted until recently; however, I feel it stands alongside Claremont, Miller, and Simonson’s work as one of the classics of the 1980’s Marvel. Luke McDonnell (also of Suicide Squad) is a vastly underrated artist and is just as responsible for its quality as O’Neil; he mentioned in an interview that he actually spent a night on the streets in the New York Bowery, to get inspiration for drawing Tony’s experiences. (Not only does that make him a total Boss, but it shows in the comic).

    It’s also got some interesting observations about class, given the descent of billionaire industrialist Tony Stark and his replacement by blue-collar Philidelphian pilot Jim Rhodes. For example, while many of Tony’s employees quit out of protest when evil Mr. Obadiah Stane steals his company, some make a point of staying. When the dishevelled Tony confronts his former chief of security about working for this clear super-villain, he gets told off about how A.) normal people have to work even if they don’t like their boss, B.) normal people don’t have the luxury of spending all day in a drunken stupor, and C.) Tony has no right to expect any loyalty if he’s going to drink himself to death and leave all his slack for his employees to pick up. Especially since, as is also noted, Stark International is basically a one-man operation for Tony to play hero that happens to be spread across a billion dollar conglomerate that employs thousands, and when that one man breaks down, everyone else is screwed.

    • supergodmasterforce Oct 31, 2014

      I’m with ya Neil

      A supremely underrated run on Iron Man.

      There’s actually a great Hank Pym guest appearance in the O’Neil/McDonnell run. It must have seen print in ’83-’84 so chronologically it would’ve been one of the first appearances of the post-Avengers Hank.

  12. Mike Loughlin Nov 1, 2014

    I thought of 3 tracks, then got distracted by who knows what & didn’t send them:

    Tonite I’m Gonna Part Your Hair (Down There)
    Not Tonite, Baby- I’ve Got a Heartache
    Don’t Need You No More (Not)

    Great job everyone else, though!

  13. David Morris Jul 24, 2016

    I’m so late to this party, but need to ask if Jeff ever committed ‘The World {That’s Coming!)’ to vinyl, tape or digital media. Sooo funky!