We started this look back at the original Vertigo Preacher series by remembering how we felt about Preacher wayyyyyy back when it was the new hotness. Our opinions were … mixed, to say the least. That installment concluded with Graeme, whose opinions were distinctly un-mixed, asking Jeff to please explain why people lionize this book despite its many, many problematic elements. And we resume with Jeff trying to do exactly that.
JEFF: There are a lot of reasons why people lionize Preacher, and I think if there’s one thing we can feel comfortable saying as Election Year 2016 kicks into gear, it’s that apparently a lot of people are still totally into Kevin Smith aping Tarantino directing a Donald Trump speech. As Matt said, it’s totally a #PROBLEMATIC fave, but that’s true of so many things out there in the world. The ‘90s were actually a pretty quiet time where a lot of America’s chickens hadn’t come to roost, and the Internet was far from pervasive.
In times like that, it’s no surprise there was more of a hankering for transgression, which included stuff like Preacher, and Fight Club, and even Jackass: men were trying to figure out why they felt displaced without anyone being really down to talk about class issues (always a tough topic for Americans to discuss), and so there was a lot of “I feel angry and pointless; maybe if I ride this shopping cart down some stairs and staple my friend’s scrotum to a cardboard box, I’ll feel better.”
Howdy, Whatnauts! Matt here. Given that AMC screened the premiere episode of their new Preacher TV show at SXSW, have released trailers for it, and even set a proper release date (May 22, Preacherheads!), it looks like yet another unfilmable work is about to show up on screens.
But it’s been a long time since Preacher #1 hit the stands–21 years, meaning that from Preacher #1 to now is about the same amount of time as from Jack Kirby’s OMAC to Preacher #1–so this felt like an appropriate time to get with Graeme and Jeff and take another look at the first twelve issues of Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon’s Vertigo series: how it holds up, how it doesn’t, how we think it might play on TV, and so on.
If you somehow haven’t read it, the book opens as the story of Jesse Custer, a small-town preacher who speaks with the word of God; his ex-girlfriend Tulip O’Hare, now a hitman of some kind; and the roguish Irish vampire Cassidy, who is Irish and roguish. And then it goes on for 70 issues of graphic violence, swearing, ruminations on masculinity and religion, and long stretches of puerile humor. We actually wind up covering the whole series to a certain extent, enough so that if you actually haven’t read the book and don’t want to be spoiled for it (in multiple ways), you really should probably avoid this series of posts altogether. With all that said, let the preachin’ begin.
Fun Fact #1: The original Captain Britain comic book series lasted 39 weekly issues. Fun Fact #2: 11 of those issues are taken up with a storyline so long and boring that, at one point, a next issue blurb begins “Next Week: Absolutely the final chapter,” and it’s not actually true. Fun Fact #3: It’s not surprising that almost everything of the set-up that was created for the first Captain Britain series was abandoned after the series was finished. Continue reading →
Oh, man. I apologize right now if the audio file you get sounds weird, you guys: for some reason, the first ten seconds kept cutting out on me over and over and over so trying to solve that may have been too taxing for my limited skills. I was able to get it to work but now there’s a two second delay between when I finish introducing and Graeme & I start gabbing. You’ll forgive me, right?
Anyway, enough with the preemptive apologizing, let’s get to the purely emptive apologizing—show notes!
0:00-3:51: Greetings! And chores!
3:51-45:02:Batman v. Superman v. Jeff v. Graeme! And yet, that is not entirely true, whatnauts, as you’ll find out when we delve into the film. FULL SPOILERS in that we talk about all the “plot” twists and reveals in the movie. But us being us, we also talk about the three points where Graeme laughed inappropriately, the parts that he loved, why Jeff thought about the Avengers, why Graeme thought of Wile E. Coyote, the best joke in the movie, why does Bruce Wayne lose his shit during the apocalyptic car commercial, which one of us thought of the film as “flaming car wreck of a film, but totally enjoyable,” the most suspenseful moment of the film for Jeff, Wonder Woman, the crazy second week drop in box office earnings, how much of BvS:DoJ was a Zack Snyder movie, and how much of it was a Warners/DC movie; and more.
45:02-48:43: In fact, we’re still talking BvS:DoJ but I thought I’d throw in a break in the ol’ time stamp since we change topic to talk (briefly) about the Suicide Squad reshoot rumors, and whether all the positive response to Wonder Woman will mean to a lot more studio meddling in the Wonder Woman movie.
48:43-57:39: Back to BvS:DoJ. “Would you recommend [the movie] to people?” asks Graeme. Discussed: John Romita, Jr., Nabokov’s Lolita, Jesse Eisenberg’s Luthor, the missing footnote from the movie, Luthor’s top-notch attention to folder logos, and more.
57:39-1:09:26: Graeme pivots away from BvS:DoJ to talk about the antidote to that film—the Flash/Supergirl crossover episode, but Jeff hasn’t seen it so the convo is pretty truncated and so we move on to some of Graeeme’s reservations about Captain America: Civil War. Discussed: when friends fight; when superheroes fight; when screenwriters fight; when wrestlers fight; when superhero movie trailers fight; and the last shot of BvS:DoJ (like I said FULL SPOILERS).
1:09:26-1:34:18: And with that, our Batman vs. Superman talk is done. Now it’s time to talk aboutI Hate The Internetby friend of the podcast Jarett Kobek. Discussed: how much we love the book; how we appear in the book; Kurt Vonnegut and Breakfast of Champions; Philip K. Dick; literature vs. the internet; The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy; the ghost of Jack Kirby; Jeff wound up by Jarett; books promising you one thing and giving you another (pros and cons); collapsing narratives and lessons to the reader; the “I Hate The Internet” bot on Twitter; and more.
1:34:18-1:57:09: “So, Graeme, should we talk about, like, comic book comic books?” asks Jeff and Graeme decides to meet him halfway by discussing the Rebirth press conference. Discussed: The bittersweet return of Greg Rucka; wondering about the whereabouts of Tom Taylor and Brendan Fletcher; a rumor about the previous Batgirl team with a countering rumor; Hope Larson on Batgirl; the non-announced team of The Super Sons, and some worries about the biweekly publishing schedule; DC taking pages from the Marvel playbook after the Marvel playbook has stopped working in the marketplace; Dan Jurgens on Action; Tom King on Batman; the pairing of art teams on the biweekly titles; the rumored creative team for The Super Sons; and more.
1:57:09-2:05:39: Almost a non-sequitur: Jeff liked the second issue of Power Man & Iron Fist by David Walker and Sanford Greene much more than the first issue. And Graeme has been reading the first two volumes of the JSA Omnibus by David Goyer, Geoff Johns, Stephen Sadowski, Leonard Kirk, Don Kramer and many more. Discussed: The Geoff Johns influence, the Scott Snyder influence, Graeme and Matt Terl being butts; Graeme reading every appearance of Captain Britain between his first appearance and Excalibur. Wow, right? Look for that as a Wait, What? essay appearing near you!
Our special thanks to the kind crew at American Ninth Art Studios for their continuing support of this podcast, as well as our continuing special thanks to the Empress Audrey, Queen of the Galaxy…and to all 119 of our supporters on Patreon who make all this possible.
2:12:42-end: But! Before we leave—Graeme hunts down the description of this podcast from I Hate The Internet to share it with you all. Because, yes, we are exactly that vain, sadly enough.
NEXT WEEK: Uh, well, funny thing about that—because of ECCC (yay!) we’re going to have to take another skip week (booo!). But join us in two weeks for the next Baxter Building (yay!) where we discuss Fantastic Four issues #126-133 (booo! probably, though I admit I haven’t read them yet.)
When I was about five years old, I got this Captain American balloon that I thought was just about the coolest thing in the world. It was nothing hugely special, just a shiny Mylar balloon with a generic picture of Cap on the side. (I think it was a John Byrne drawing, but I could be wrong. It was the standard slight-crouch shield-in-front pose that they used for Cap merchandise in those days.)
But I loved it because I had, at that time, NEVER seen a Captain America balloon before. Everything was Spider-Man or Hulk (who had their own Saturday morning cartoons) or MAYBE Fantastic Four (because their cartoon with H.E.R.B.I.E. wasn’t too far in the past), or, of course, Superman or Batman in their José Luis García-López designed licensed-product incarnations.
So this Mylar balloon lived in my house for what seemed like AGES (in kid-time, which probably means it was about a week), hovering ever farther from the ceiling, until finally it was just a crumpled silver bag of air on the ground and someone threw it away. I was inconsolable, because I was sure I would never see a Captain America balloon again, and I resigned myself to a life of Hulk merchandise. (I haaaaaaaaaaaated Hulk as a kid. I kinda still hate that incarnation of the Hulk, if I’m being honest.)
Sitting on the couch last night watching live-action versions of the Flash and Supergirl fight the Silver Banshee and Livewire on CBS primetime, that Cap balloon came to mind. And the idea of trying to describe for my kids a world where Captain America was a niche character whose balloon was tough to find … I mean, I might as well have tried to explain what it was like to have to tan my own leathers for clothes. (NOTE: tanning leathers is a thing that people did, right? Maybe?)
It’s kinda counter to the vibe of the whole “Flash visits Supergirl” crossover episode to start it with a slightly depressing story about a balloon, but oh well! More cheerful discussion of the episode (including SPOILERS, not that there’s anything all that spoilable) continues below!
I’ve been pretty hard on this Superman: American Alien project Max Landis is writing for DC. At best, I’ve found it decent-but-not-Superman; at worst I’ve been genuinely surprised that DC wants to publish it. But one thing that’s been consistent: the best moments, for me, have come when Landis writes a scene for Clark that seems true to the kid (or teenager, or young adult) he’d be now, in 2016, rather than who he would’ve been in 1945 or 1965 or 1985. The E.T. conversation in the first issue; the X-ray vision scene an issue later … these things have genuinely worked for me.
The other thing that’s been great is the art; they’ve given Landis a terrific assortment of rotating artists for the book, and they’ve managed to make sure even his more offputting ideas look lovely.
Now, in the most recent issue, Superman: American Alien #5, either Landis or artist Francis Manapul or the gestalt of the two has given me my favorite Superman image since Frank Quitely’s work on All-Star Superman. Look:
0:00-8:53: Greetings! We’ll save you the early problems with Skype and just take you to where things finally straightened out, and Jeff and Graeme were able to just start talking about, y’know, the Internet and happiness and babies slipping on ice and OUTRAGE! and stuff.
8:53-32:10: And then we get a chance to get into it: Neil Gaiman’s new issues of Miracleman have been pulled from Marvel’s solicits! Why? Who? What? Where? And is the opening Jeff needs to get his take on the Miracleman mythos published? We answer nearly none of those questions! But we do discuss how Jeff would do in a debate against Donald Trump, so…
32:10-48:19: Graeme has been reading the Secret Wars crossover isssues now that they’ve hit Marvel Unlimited and…he’s pretty uninterested! Is that just because Graeme is more of a DC man, or does Jeff, who is more of a Marvel man, also have the same problem? A lot of talk about the pros and cons of Marvel Unlimited, Jeff and the ‘90s, SPOILERS for the Secret Wars: Civil War miniseries, the emotional investment necessity for alternate universe stories, and more.
48:19-57:27: A mean, off-handed comment from Jeff has Graeme talking about a book he’s been catching up on and enjoying: Harley Quinn by Jimmy Palmiotti, Amanda Conner, and Chad Hardin. Graeme talks a little bit about why the book works for him, why he wishes more books could have this sense of fun, how Harley should or shouldn’t be linked to DCYou, and more.
57:27-1:02:44: “Wait, how did we end up talking about Frank Tieri?” Graeme asks. Jeff’s reply: because he read and enjoyed This One Summer by Jillian Tamaki and Mariko Tamaki, published by FirstSecond Books. NOTE: due to Jeff being a dumb-ass, he refers to Mariko Tamaki as the illustrator and Jillian Tamaki as the writer, when it is actually the other way around. The dumb-ass regrets the error.
1:02:44-1:18:30: The other book Jeff read and wanted to discuss is Patience by Daniel Clowes. Jeff finished reading the book a half-hour before the recording of the podcast and he has a plethora of feelings to work out about this book, about Clowes’ work, and about the things Clowes tries and accomplishes in Patience. Also discussed: time travel, the thing that Graeme loves; Seconds by Bryan Lee O’Malley; the butterfly and the blood spatter; and more.
1:18:30-1:30:24: Graeme received a review copy of Mary Wept Over the Feet of Jesus: Prostitution and Religious Obedience in the Bible by Chester Brown but didn’t get a chance to read it before this was recorded, so we spend a certain amount of time talking about Brown’s previous book on sex work, Paying For It, Brown’s previous comics work covering the New Testament, and more.
1:30:24-1:40:08: Similarly, Jeff has read I Hate The Internet by friend of the podcast Jarett Kobek, a book that mentions, among many, many other things, both this podcast and these podcasters. So we are going to discuss it in two weeks when Graeme has read it. Why not pick up a copy and also read it so you can be in on the discussion when we do? If you were a fan of, say, Kurt Vonnegut, you might quite like it.
1:40:08-1:56:02: Graeme has read the first issue of Dept. H (or Depth) by Matt Kindt coming out from Dark Horse (with colors from Sharlene Kindt) and quite liked it. We discuss Matt Kindt, Jeff Lemire, and Ray Fawkes and Jeff’s sense of regret for not looking more deeply at the work of these comics creators who are doing what should be Jeff’s jam but totally enjoying the arguably easier work of Ben Marra’s Terror Assaulter: O.M.W.O.T.
1:56:02-end: Closing comments…or are they? Because Jeff has a story about playing superheroes with his niece that he thinks is worth your time. And then: look for us on Stitcher!Itunes! Twitter together and separately: Graeme and Jeff! Matt! Tumblr!
Our special thanks to the kind crew at American Ninth Art Studios for their continuing support of this podcast, as well as our continuing special thanks to the Empress Audrey, Queen of the Galaxy…and to all 117 of our supporters on Patreon who make all this possible.
NEXT WEEK: We are on a break. Rest up your ears!
TWO WEEKS FROM NOW:Batman v. Superman v. I Hate The Internet. Be there!
You may or may not remember, back in July last year, DC announcing 8 new miniseries intended to “freshen up and contemporarize” a number of fan-favorite characters with that tried-and-true method: bringing back old-school writers, because white men in their 60s can make things contemporary like no-one else. The series, it was announced, would launch in early 2016.
So here we are in early 2016, and all but one of the series have, indeed, launched… kind of. Only two of the series that have appeared have come out in their originally-announced format — Swamp Thing and Poison Ivy: Circle of Life & Death — with five of the others ending up running in anthology series that have ended up being uneven, to say the least. Continue reading →
Previously on Baxter Building: Just when all seemed lost, Archie Goodwin saved the day by stepping in as guest-writer on the series in mid-storyline and demonstrated that there was life in the Fantastic Four yet — mostly by turning Reed Richards into a temporary threat and bringing Doctor Doom back to be awesome. But with Stan Lee’s return just around the corner, can the quality level remain this high?
…No. The answer’s no. 0:00:00-0:06:59: To begin the episode, a cold open that actually comes from our post-show conversation about where we first read these comics — Marvel UK reprint talk, ahoy! The book I talk about is this one, for those curious — and the idea of “jumping-on points” for new readers. Includes special meta-moment where Jeff suggests we make it the cold open! 0:07:00-0:08:42: The very little introductory to-do lets you know that we’re going through Fantastic Four #119-126 this time around, except that’s very much a lie — we only get through #125, because get caught up in the first issue far more than either of us expected. Sorry, those who hoped we’d get into the first issue of Roy Thomas’ run. 0:08:43-0:30:05: And talking of Roy Thomas, Fantastic Four #119 is, I say, “the ultimate preachiest Stan Lee comic that just happens to not be written by Stan Lee.” Yes, Thomas guest-writes this one-off in which the Fantastic Four solve racism, and it’s amazing. Not necessarily in a good way, but, man. But there’s so much more to it than just dealing with 1972 international race relations: Johnny Storm’s weird science! AUNTIE, the robot that demonstrates that Roy Thomas doesn’t really understand how acronyms work! Other things that Roy Thomas doesn’t really understand how they work (Like the idea of “blood brothers”)! The self-obsessed melodrama of Reed Richards! The unusual prevalence of skyjackings in the 1970s! 0:30:06-0:55:58: As the Thing and the Human Torch arrive in Fictional Racist Country 1972AD, Jeff compares the way in which the story tries to come to terms with racism with a letter in the same issue from a reader who suggests that the Thing would be the ideal character to deal with such issues — let’s just leave it as “perhaps they had the best of intentions, but the reality didn’t necessarily live up to them.” Oh, and we get to meet the Black Leopard, because T’Challa’s changed his name in this issue because of a combination of not wanting to upset White America and, as Jeff puts it, “one of Roy Thomas’s ‘Uh, you know, scientifically…!'” Yes, this really is a strangely cautious comic for one that’s trying to make a political stance. But at least there’s a villain called Jeth Robards and an appearance by Klaw, even though Jeff and I both forgot the last quarter of the comic exists. Blame a lot of that on the efforts of Buscema, who manages to make a three-page fight sequence underwhelming, and we have a brief discussion about what’s missing compared with Kirby. 0:55:59-1:15:12:FF #120 begins what Jeff calls “yet another swan song for Stan Lee,” as “The Man” returns for six issues to utterly sully his legacy on the title. If you’ve ever thought to yourself, “I wish that rumor about Jack Kirby doing Galactus as God was true,” then get ready to meet Gabriel — the all-powerful threat who’ll make you wish you had read the Bible more closely! But before we get to him, we have to grapple with men with pillow cases storming the Baxter Building, and the question of whether or not the Fantastic Four needs its own J. Jonah Jameson (It doesn’t). 1:15:13-1:32:32: If your favorite part of the Overmind arc was that the world turned against the FF, get ready: it’s back in Fantastic Four #121 because an angel told them to do it. What’s that, you say? Why would an angel come to Earth to tell people to beat up the Fantastic Four? Oh, that’s just one of the logic problems in this astonishingly underwhelming, disappointing issue that undersells its own highlights in its desire to fit a particular format. But don’t worry — there’s the additional star power of the Silver Surfer and Galactus to try and distract you from the many problems on show here. Spoiler: it doesn’t work. This is what happens when Stan Lee tries to outdo a rumor about his earlier stuff. 1:32:33-1:42:49: Buscema’s layouts in FF #122 bring us back to conversations about the nine and six panel grids and why they don’t work as well as, say, Kirby’s 6-panel pages or Dave Gibbons’ 9-panel pages on Watchmen. It’s arguably the most interesting thing about the issue, because the rest of the issue relies on an idea that manages to make both Galactus and Reed Richards seem smaller and less capable and awesome (in the old-fashioned sense of the term): that Galactus can be easily distracted by someone stealing his spaceship. 1:42:50-1:55:40: It says a lot about Fantastic Four #123 that we get far more excited about the appearance of Richard Nixon than anything else. “I think it’s hilarious that Reed Richards is talking to the President into his crotch,” Jeff says at one point, in a comment that’s so much more enjoyable out of context, and is far more interesting than anything that’s actually in the comic itself. We unpack the appeal of including Nixon in the comic, and also just why Reed Richards’ cunning plan is bullshit and impressively bigoted against everyone living in the Negative Zone. Jeff, meanwhile, invokes Harlan Ellison in explaining the failures of Stan Lee in his latter years, especially where the Silver Surfer is concerned. And yet, this really isn’t as bad as it gets, because… 1:55:41-2:09:04: We end up taking FF #124 and 125 as one unit, because they’re an especially light two-parter that sees the return of the Monster From The Lost Lagoon from back in #97 because nobody demanded it. Yes, Stan Lee’s final issues on the title as the “regular” writer are a retread of one of the most boring issues of the Lee/Kirby run, only slower and dumber. Just how slow and dumb? Well, there’s this sequence:
So, yeah. That happened. But, just to sing John Buscema and Joe Sinnott’s praises instead of damning Buscema’s layouts, there’s this sequence in #125 that both Jeff and I loved:
Still, at least everyone involved seems to have realized that things have gone off the rails, there’s a “next issue” tease that, as Jeff points out, promises that things are about to get turned around. Hopefully. (Not that we actually get there this episode — but next time! Honest!) 2:09:05-end: Next time: A New Beginning, apparently, as we take on the brief entirety of Roy Thomas’ (first) run on the series and find out what happens when the series tries to go back to basics. Until then, we’re available on Twitter, Tumblr and Patreon, to tide you over with… good tidings…? Okay, maybe not so much. But there will be a regular Wait, What? next week right here to make your week start right…! As always, thanks for listening, and reading through the show notes.
I’ve got a backlog of comics I want to write about. It currently forms a towering bulwark on my bedside table, containing all kinds of stuff — some DC and Marvel, yes, but also indie and indie superhero and slice-of-life and YA and horror and even a couple of comics-adjace prose books. (And that’s not counting the god-knows-what-all that’s piled up in a digital backlog.) But between the dayjob and family stuff and all the other things I do, I don’t even have time to read this stuff, let alone form a cogent opinion and write about it. (Hence the backlog. Duh.)
And yet, spinning off from my usual casual readalong with the Jay & Miles X-Plain the X-Men podcast, I’ve found myself somewhat obsessively reading through old Excalibur issues. It’s a book I remember loving, then just as suddenly not loving at all anymore, and it’s been fascinating on re-read to find the exact same thing happening. I would’ve thought that changes in me, in my life, in my perspective, would’ve changed how I react to these comics. But, nope, I still hit that “Cross-Time Caper” storyline and just feel my interest seeping away.
One crucial change, though, is that I can now sort of see WHY that happened — what caused it then, what’s causing it now, and what it means for the way I read superhero comics in general. Which is what I’ll write about in a list-y format below!
(Another note of mild interest: in one of my other guises, as a sports columnist in the local alternative weekly, I regularly rail against nostalgia as a driving force in sports. I view it as insidious, manipulative, often retrograde. Yet here is my eight trillionth post looking back at comics I liked as a kid. If I could figure out how I justify balancing these two completely oppositional points-of-view in my brain, I could make a fortune ending internet arguments just like Kurt Busiek used to. Sigh.)
Fun Fact #1: The original Captain Britain comic book series lasted 39 weekly issues. Fun Fact #2: 11 of those issues are taken up with a storyline so long and boring that, at one point, a next issue blurb begins “Next Week: Absolutely the final chapter,” and it’s not actually true. Fun Fact #3: It’s not surprising that almost everything of the set-up that was created for the first Captain Britain series was abandoned after the series was finished. 
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