Previously on Baxter Building: Walter Simonson took on Marvel’s first family, and Jeff was… not impressed. Worse, after re-reading the issues through eyes that were more critical than nostalgic, neither was I. And those were the good issues…!
0:00:00-0:05:17: We open with a brief introduction about the issues we’re covering this episode, as well as the strong response to the last episode and whether or not Jeff is gaslighting me. I am blinking noticeably, please tell me you can see this.
0:05:18-0:18:01: How much do we love Fantastic Four #342? Perhaps the answer is obvious from the amount of time we spend on it, although the 13 minutes is actually significantly longer than this bizarre fill-in deserves, as might be obvious when you realize it’s basically a cover version of the John Byrne Secret Wars II crossover about the little kid who sets himself on fire, but with more super villainy and a guest-starring role from Rusty Collins, the character no-one liked from X-Factor (or, in Jeff’s mind, an obscure sex act). Really, it’s kind of a surprise we managed that long, really.
0:18:02-0:46:26: Walt Simonson returns for FF #343-344, aka, “Nukebusters!!!” and “Nukebusters II,” which Jeff recaps with impressive brevity, even if I think he’s being far too harsh about the comics themselves. We talk about the unbearable lightness of plotting, DC’s Challengers of the Unknown and whether or not Simonson would rather be writing that book — as well as whether or not that would’ve made Jeff like these comics more — and the most pressing question of all: What is with Simonson’s interest in Sue’s middle and using that as a foreground object in panel layout? Plus! We discuss Art Thibert’s inking, and I keep saying his name as if it was Thilbert, with an L. There is no L. I am an idiot.
0:46:27-1:13:11: Discussion of Fantastic Four #345-346 follows, and if I disagreed with Jeff’s complaints about the writing of the previous two issues, I couldn’t here; there are amazingly slight, speedy reads where the biggest stumbling point is the utter mischaracterization of Shary, although Jeff has an interesting take on just why she suddenly wants to stay human instead of a Thing, despite what Steve Englehart spent a long time telling us. But what about the dinosaurs, I hear you ask? It’s a Walt Simonson comic with dinosaurs! Doesn’t that alone make it particularly excellent…? Well, maybe…? Yet, somehow, Jeff and I were more impressed with the sight of Reed Richards shooting a gun. Maybe we’re doing this wrong.
1:13:12-1:38:59: Talking about doing it wrong, FF #347-349 is the fan-favorite “New Fantastic Four” storyline that sees Art Adams come in as guest artist, and Spider-Man, Wolverine, Ghost Rider and the Hulk come in as a guest Fantastic Four, and it leaves us pretty cold. There’s a story that doesn’t really make that much sense, repeats plot points that have literally happened less than a year before, and seems the work of a particularly disengaged Simonson, while I make my attempt to steal Jeff’s title of Most Hated Whatnaut by admitting that Adams’ art makes for some bad comics. I’m very sorry. (Not really.)
1:39:00-1:53:11: We segue into looking back at the eight issues we covered — really, just the Simonson-written ones — and talk about, basically, why they’re not working for us. Does Simonson not have the humility or the interest for the series? Has he forgotten that it’s a team book about multiple characters? Could he simply be — gasp! — not a great writer? (The problem obviously isn’t his artwork; he’s Walter fucking Simonson. I think we’ve talked more about the art in this series since he started than since Kirby was on the book.)
1:53:12-end: We wrap things up talking about what we’re going to be reading for the next Baxter Building (#350-356) and being very vague about when the next Wait, What? is; it’s actually going to be next week, unless disaster strikes. Until then, you can find us, as usual, on Twitter, Tumblr and Patreon. Apologies for the lateness of the show notes — a combination of me being later than I wanted and then the site being down because of reasons I don’t fully understand, to be honest — and thank you, as ever, for reading and listening.
Faithful Whatnauts might have noticed an unexpected lack of episodes for the last couple of weeks, and also might be wondering what’s behind the sudden disappearance, and relative radio silence about it beyond a brief couple of tweets last week. The reasons for our disappearance come down to what I’m sure everyone expected: Real life intruded, and we had to take a step back for a second. On a mundane level, I was dealing with a sick dog and a sick wife simultaneously, but far more importantly, Jeff’s dad was very sick and passed away this weekend. We went back and forth about whether or not we’d try and do an episode last week, as much from the “Maybe a distraction would be good” angle as anything, but circumstances conspired against that happening.
As things currently stand right now, we’re planning to try and record again this week with the intent of having a new episode next weekend, but as I’m sure you can all understand, this is a tentative plan that might change. Both Jeff and I have been really grateful for your patience and understanding during the break, as well as feeling (unreasonably, on Jeff’s part) guilty about not updating everyone on the situation sooner, but I hope you can forgive our uncertainty and nervousness about sharing details earlier. We hope to be back soon, with something resembling our traditional snark and perhaps kinder words to say about Walt Simonson’s Fantastic Four; until then, really, thank you all for sticking around even while we’re not saying anything.
Wait, What? Ep. 244: The Snides of March
- March 11, 2018
- Tagged as: Arthur Wyatt, Dale Eaglesham, Enio, Erica Henderson, Gerard Way, Jeff Lemire, John Cooper, John Wagner, Judge Dredd, Judge Dredd Megazine, Lorenzo De Felici, M.A.C.H. 1, Nick Derington, Niles Allen, Oblivion Song, Pat Mills, Prism Stalker, Robert Flynn, Robert Kirkman, Ryan North, Sloane Leong, Steve Orlando, The Doom Patrol/JLA Special #1, The Sentry, The Terrifics, The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl
Wait, What? Ep. 243: Wild Hunts
- February 25, 2018
- Tagged as: Batman And The Outsiders Vol. 2, Black Panther Annual, Chris Claremont, Christopher Priest, ComicsPro, Daniel Acuna, Dark Knights Rising: The Wild Hunt, David F. Walker, Don McGregor, Doomsday Clock, Doug Mahnke, Earth2, Gary Frank, Geoff Johns, Graeme, Grant Morrison, Hoopla, Howard Porter, James Tynion IV, Jamie Mendoza, Jason Aaron, Jeff, Jeph Loeb, Jerry Ordway, Jim Aparo, John Byrne, Jorge Jimenez, Joshua Williamson, Ken Lashley., Mark Schultz, Marvel, Marvel Fresh Start, Michael Turner, Mike Perkins, Mike W. Barr, Reginald Hudlin, Scott Snyder, Superman Vs. Darkseid, Trevor Von Eeden, Wait What?
Previously on Baxter Building: It’s an all-new beginning once more, as the Steve Englehart era is behind us, and the Fantastic Four — really, five, because Ben Grimm is still part of the team despite being de-powered — is ready for some old-school adventures freed of the meta-textual war between writer and editorial that has marked the last year or so of the series. Can incoming creator Walt Simonson right a ship that’s been enjoyable, if somewhat listing, for quite some time…?
0:00:00-0:06:29: In a surprise move, we open our first episode of the Simonson era by examining Jeff’s relationship with Simonson’s work, and the fact that — gasp — he’s not really a fan! Well, it’s more complicated than that; he loves the artwork, but doesn’t love the writing. Get your disbelief out the way now, because he might end up converting you by episode’s end.
0:06:30-0:39:29: Instead of going issue-by-issue, we somehow fall into an en-masse discussion of Fantastic Four #334-336, which Jeff keeps calling the “Dark Congress” issues. (We’re unusually bad with issue titles this episode, so I’ll put them here: #334 is “Shadows of Alarm,” #335 is “Death by Debate,” and #336 is, indeed, “Dark Congress!”) I think the issues, drawn by Walt Simonson with art by Rich Buckler and Ron Lim, are “enjoyable in a way that the book hasn’t been in years,” and are gentle — if not particularly funny — comedy, but Jeff doesn’t agree in the slightest, because he sees a more sinister motive behind making fun of silly villains. We talk Mark Gruenwald, Steve Gerber, John Byrne, and then slip very much into talking about the next few issues early, in trying to talk about why these issues disappointed Jeff so much. The short version? Simonson’s writing really needs Simonson’s artwork in order to fully function.
0:39:30-0:53:31: “Once you get to the double page spread on pages 2 and 3, the scope of the book is bigger,” I enthuse as we get to the All-Simonson Fantastic Four #337, although we go back and forth about whether the writing lives up to the artwork here. (Spoiler: It doesn’t, but we’ll get to the reasons why soon enough.) Jeff can’t help but see the specter of John Byrne in these pages, although I think it’s more a shared devotion to the same source Lee/Kirby material. That said, one of Jeff’s reasons for the Byrne comparison is worth its weight in rhetorical gold all by itself.
0:53:32-1:08:51: Discussion on FF #338 opens with the idea of Simonson’s art taking the book back to its sci-fi roots, before Jeff brings up a point of continuity that I hadn’t even considered (or remembered, for that matter), and we talk about the way in which the Fantastic Four comic has somehow stopped being about the Fantastic Four, somehow. What is the central idea behind the Fantastic Four, and how much does the team called the Fantastic Four have to be part of it…? All this, and Jeff’s dislike for Death’s Head, an unnecessary Kieron Gillen slam — those two things aren’t unrelated — and our shared enjoyment for Simonson’s language, if not necessarily his plotting.
1:08:52-1:26:42: Fantastic Four #339 continues to dazzle with the visuals, with a three-page opening sequence that Jeff and I can’t help but pull apart. I said I’d share all three pages, so…
…Really. How amazing is that? (Especially knowing that the final page is a page turn from the all-black panel page.) Meanwhile, I arguably give Simonson far too much credit for giving the readers credit, before complaining that the plot for this issue comes out of nowhere and seems like a waste of time. Jeff describes it as “weirdly half-assed,” and honestly, he’s not wrong. We puzzle through the plan being enacted in this issue as we explain the plot, and it’s not as if we come to any kind of conclusion.
1:26:43-1:40:47: FF #340 opens with me riffing on where Simonson’s head is at as a writer, and what that means for the storyline going on right now. Jeff isn’t happy with this issue’s plot, and tries to argue that this is the biggest waste of time in the entire storyline because of yet another side quest that adds little to the overall story. I’m not convinced, because (a) monsters, (b) Reed’s suicide run, which leads is prompted by some clearly false jeopardy (Not one reader of the comic at this point seriously believes Sue is going to die), but does result in some amazing art, which once again gets dissected. Is this the most we’ve ever talked about the art in a Baxter Building? Possibly, or at least since the Kirby days. Perhaps that’s a clue as to where the strength of these stories lies…
1:40:48-1:56:27: Does the opening narration of Fantastic Four #341 suggest that even those responsible think that the last issue was filler? Maybe, but this issue really tries to make up for it by packing in a whole bunch of plot in an attempt to wrap everything up and destroy all of reality in the process. Well, if you’re going to go out on a story like this, I guess you’re going out with a bang — and we try to live up to what’s going on with some singing, some art appreciation, and wondering why the surprise reveal that sets up the conclusion works the way it does. (Even though Jeff calls it a cheat; I’m not sure that’s entirely fair, but Simonson is certainly playing with reader expectation in a way that both works and disappoints.)
1:56:28-end: We speed towards the end of the episode with a little piece of continuity minutiae — the villain of this entire arc wasn’t actually who she appeared to be, thanks to an after-the-fact retcon — and then a reminder that you can find us all over the internet, especially at our Twitter, Tumblr and Patreon accounts. Next time around: I hopefully won’t be sick so we won’t have to wait a week to record the next episode, and we’ll be going through Fantastic Four #342-349. As always, thank you for listening and reading along.
I wound up on Marvel Day At Sea almost by accident. Our friends went on a Disney Cruise a couple of years ago and loved it, and suggested that we might want to come along on the next one. The booking time was chosen more than a year out based on work busy seasons and cruise pricing, not the the theme day. If we had gone a week earlier, it would’ve been Star Wars, which my wife and daughter and I would’ve loved but my son would’ve been indifferent to; instead we got Marvel which has something for all of us.
I had never done a cruise before, so literally everything about the experience was new (and slightly baffling) to me. For those of you in the same boat (LOL BOAT JOKES!), our five day cruise worked basically like this: Day 1 was at sea, travelling to Day 2’s stop; Day 3 was Marvel Day at Sea while travelling to Day 4’s stop; Day 5 is very short and you leave the boat.
While you’re on the boat, you can participate in any number of activities, scheduled (shows, classes, contests, etc.) and free-form (pools, spa stuff, pictures with Disney characters, stuffing your face, etc.). It’s like a large, floating hotel/mall combo, almost entirely tilted toward Disney-owned IP. I saw The Last Jedi three more times while on the cruise. The stateroom TVs have channels including “Pixar Movies,” “Marvel Movies,” and “Disney Classics”. That kinda thing.
On Marvel Day at Sea, all of those things still happen, but with Marvel branding. And, I will tell you, it is a sight to behold. Here, for example, is a long line of people wrapping around the boat to get a picture with Loki. Not the actual Norse god Loki, of course, and not noted Taylor Swift ex-“boyfriend” (and Loki actor) Tom Hiddleston, either. Just a pleasant, official, onboard Loki.
In an ideal world, this would be where the shownotes for the new Baxter Building would go, but… Well, I got sick last week when we should’ve been recording it and as a result, there is no new Baxter Building just yet. (I’m fine now, aside from a scratchy throat.) We’re pushing the recording schedule out for the rest of the month as a result, so: Next week will see the arrival of Baxter Building Ep. 38 — the first Walter Simonson issues! — and then, the week after, another Wait, What? which will be ready to take on the news from that week’s Image Expo. It’ll all work out! Honest! Now excuse me while I go cough a little more…
Wait, What? Ep. 242: Limited Unlimited
- February 4, 2018
- Tagged as: Abbott, ACO, Ari Syahrazad, Black Dahlias, Brian Michael Bendis, Dan Abnett, Doom Patrol/Justice League of America, Eric Canete, Gerard Way, Graeme, Greg Capullo, Jeff, John Romita Jr., Jung Gi Kim, Kristin Schwarz, Metal, Milk Wars, Motherlands, Podcast, Rachel Stott, reviews, Saladin Ahmed, Sami Kivela, Scott Snyder, Shad Clark, Si Spurrier, Silencer, Steve Orlando, Wait What?
Hello, friends! Skipping our way back after skip week, it is the Wait, What? Podcast, with much talk about comics and comics news for you. As per our discussion in the comments of our previous show notes, there are some time annotations in the show notes below in order to help you skip spoilers you do not want to spoil you…but be forewarned I put most of them down guessing the intro would add a minute to the time and it was only a mere fifty-six seconds. I adjusted things accordingly for the Silencer spoiler but everything else might hit four or five seconds sooner than indicated? It’s not perfect, but on the other hand I might have this wrapped three fewer hours than when I used to do full show notes.
So, with that in mind, on with the show!
- The Salt-N-Pepa Pedanticism Hour (fortunately not a full hour);
- A lot of moving parts to the comics news: first up, the announced discount for Comixology Unlimited; the aftermath of Marvel’s latest absurd Amazon sale; the joys of Hoopla; the sumptuous art of Milk Wars: Doom Patrol/Justice League of America by Gerard Way, Steve Orlando, the amazing ACO, (with a backup strip by Magdalene Visaggio and Sonny Liew) (with story spoilers right around the 45 minute mark to around the 47 minute mark or so); Metal #5 by Scott Snyder and Greg Capullo (pretty much the whole conversation is a spoiler, I guess? To the extent we even understand what’s going on, which is part of the problem? So I guess starting around the 48 minute mark to right around one hour and three if you want to skip the majority of the convo?) Also discussed: Bendis’s plans for Superman and DC, the Scott Snyder weekly JLA event, and some understandably nervous retailers.
- 1:15:10 (or so): We talk about the news of Dan Mintz’s DMG Group buying Valiant and the absolutely delightful typo that resulted in the reportage of that news (h/t Seth Rosenblatt), but then quickly return to our patented W,W? hand-wringing over possible DC/Marvel gamesmanship in Summer 2018 right when the market literally can’t afford it.
- 1:29:00 (or so): A *very* quick discussion about Ethan Van Sciver’s harassment of Darryl Ayo and the difficulty of nailing down an objective history of something happening 100% on social media;
- 1:39:05: Moving into talking about comics we’ve read: Graeme has good things to say about Motherlands #1 by Si Spurrier, Jung Gi Kim, Eric Canete, and Rachel Stott; Jeff mentions West Coast Avengers: Zodiac Attack by Steve Englehart, Al Milgrom, and Joe Sinnott (but really doesn’t talk about how good it is—people, it’s really good); Silencer #1 by John Romita Jr. and Dan Abnett (with what Graeme points out is probably a significant spoiler mentioned at 1:53:52 to 1:54:08) and contrasted with Jennifer Blood, as well as the first issues of Abbott #1 by Saladin Ahmed and Sami Kivela, and Black Dahlias #0 by Kristin Schwarz, Shad Clark, and Ari Syahrazad. But, Jeff also read vols 1, 2, and 5 of Duet of Beautiful Goddesses by Yumi Hanakoji, so why should we listen to him, if you think about it?
- 2:03:05-end: Closing comments that very quickly go off the rails because we talk about the continuity of John Byrne’s Superman and how much control a creator should have; and then back to closing comments, and then we are back off the rails a few more times.
Wait, What? Ep. 241: Return of the Red Trumps
- January 21, 2018
- Tagged as: Action Comics, Al Ewing, American Vandal, Aud Koch, Avengers, Batman, Bob Haney, Brian Michael Bendis, Charles Forsman, Chip Zdarsky, DC, George Tuska, Hawkeye, Jim Zub, Kelly Thompson, Kenneth Rocafort, Mark Waid, Marvel, Matt, Mister Miracle, Mitch Gerads, Rian Johnson, Spectacular Spider-Man, Star Wars The Last Jedi, TEOTFW, The End of the Fucking World, Tom King, Travel Foreman, Ultimates, Ultimates2, Vince Colletta, Wolverine
Hey there, friends. The government may have shut down but not your friendly neighborhood Wait, What? Yes, we have a terrifyingly-close-to-two-and-a-half-hour installment for you!
- How many people we follow on Twitter(!);
- Comics news round-up featuring: the return of the red trunks; Bendis in Action Comics #1000; Dan Slott leaving Spider-Man to take over Iron Man; Kelly Thompson is now Marvel Exclusive; and, as Graeme perfectly puts it, “Wolverine is back, in the most fucking confusing manner ever!”
- The gap between Marvel’s sales and Marvel’s talent: Thompson on Hawkeye; Zdarsky on Spectacular Spider-Man; Al Ewing’s Ultimates and Ultimates2 (with Kenneth Rocafort, Aud Koch, Travel Foreman);
- Graeme’s thoughts on the first two parts of the new Avengers mega-storyline “No Surrender” by Mark Waid, Jim Zub, Al Ewing, and Pepe Larraz;
- Jeff’s thoughts on Batman #39, and a discussion about Tom King and Mister Miracle and DC’s non-Kirby handling of The New Gods overall and a discussion of continuity and character investment as opposed to an investment on a creator’s “take” on a character, which leads in its way to:
- discussions of American Vandal and the Netflix adaptation of Charles Forsman’s TEOTFW, and
- a *very* long—and absolutely spoiler-rich—discussion about Star Wars: The Last Jedi.
- Back to news (kinda): a discussion of Marvel’s new publisher;
- An all-too-brief discussion of the genius Bob Haney, George Tuska, and Vince Colletta story “Will of the Whisperer” from Worlds Finest #252, available on Comixology;
- If you like (or don’t mind) reading comics electronically, see if your library has the Hoopla service, so you can check out and read The Bronze Age Batman Brave and the Bold Omnibus Vol. 1 *for free*;
- Closing comments! Featuring Graeme’s great recap of Justice League of America #123 over at the most excellent Steve Morris’s Shelf Dust; Jeff’s not-so-great job of his half of the closing comments; and a call for you to VOTE!
Whew!
Next week is a skip week but join us in a mere fortnight for Wait, What? Ep. 242, won’t you?
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